herald gearbox

[foshi]

my 12/50 has  spitfire 1500 engine fitted single rail gearbox non overdrive . gave it a quick first drive today gearbox noise terrible whine in every gear not sure what car the box came from., but  has synchro in first gear my question is should i rebuild it? or i have a good vitesse 1600 box i can bolt in not  bothered about loosing synchro on first , will it fit though , what box  could be in the car now was the 13/60 synchro on first ? have no history of the work carried out prior to my purchase paul

[Colin Lindsay]

I'm not sure what the input shaft on the 1600 Vitesse is, compared to the Herald, so don't know how straight a swap it would be but neither had 1st gear synchro. I prefer the 3-rail to the single, just personal choice, but there are loads of Herald and Spitfire boxes about that will fit.

There will be a number on the top plate of the gearbox that will tell you the model and thereby the spec; I suspect yours is Spitfire and matches the engine. I had thought that all Heralds from start to finish had no 1st gear synchro, whereas Spitfire models had, however I've found a few sites recently claiming that 13/60s had four synchros. I'm still checking. My own Herald now has a Spitfire 3-rail box and although second-hand it has so far proved very good. 

[johny]

The Vitesse box will be a difficult fit. I think it used a bigger diameter coil type clutch rather than the Spitfire 1500 diaphragm type so the bell housing and input shaft are different and that in turn makes the gearbox longer.

On top of that the single rail gearbox is the last incarnation of the Triumph design so had uprated synchro rings and mainshaft needle bearing both of which are weaknesses in the Vitesse unit.

With your existing box its unusual to have a whine in every gear as normally 4th is quiet while the others whine so if it is coming from the gearbox all I can think is that one of the main bearings is worn....

[NonMember]

2 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

had thought that all Heralds from start to finish had no 1st gear synchro, whereas Spitfire models had, however I've found a few sites recently claiming that 13/60s had four synchros.

Those sites are wrong but actually so were you, slightly. All Heralds had the 3-synchro gearbox - there is no difference between a 1200 and a 13/60 gearbox apart from the number. But there's also no difference between a 13/60 gearbox and a Mk3 Spitfire. It was only the Mk4 and 1500 that got synchro on 1st.

[Josef]

The input shaft splines differ between the three rail and single rail boxes, so you’d need to change the clutch too. A Vitesse box is not the best choice though as the ratios are different to the Herald/Spitfire ones. Re: Jonny’s comments about the bellhousing, you could swap to a Herald/Spitfire one, and should if you’re desperate to make this change, but still I’d recommend finding a box with more appropriate gear ratios!

If it’s noisy though, could it just be short on oil!?

[Colin Lindsay]

9 hours ago, NonMember said:

Those sites are wrong but actually so were you, slightly. 

Very slightly, if at all... go on - admit it... I said Spitfire MODELS ie meaning some versions, not all. Sorry, I wasn't clear!

[Clive]

1 hour ago, Josef said:

The input shaft splines differ between the three rail and single rail boxes, so you’d need to change the clutch too. A Vitesse box is not the best choice though as the ratios are different to the Herald/Spitfire ones. Re: Jonny’s comments about the bellhousing, you could swap to a Herald/Spitfire one, and should if you’re desperate to make this change, but still I’d recommend finding a box with more appropriate gear ratios!

If it’s noisy though, could it just be short on oil!?

The vitesse 1600 box is externally the same as later vitesse and GT6 boxes. A friend was here yesterday with his early spitfire fitted with a GT6 box. But he had to cut the input shaft, shorten it and weld the end of a spit input shaft on. (did that 20+ years ago, and covered well over 100K. And yes, it was done on a lathe, with the runout down to 2 thou. Not a job for the inexperienced)

Best bet here is a simple swap. I have 2 single rail boxes here looking for a home, the 4 cylinder versions are all the same. These came from dolly 1300s

[foshi]

oil replaced is slightly quieter in 4 gear , all other very noisy sounds like bearings car has been stood 18years was its first very short run up a private road yesterday . possibly the reason it was laid up paul, sent email clive

[Pete Lewis]

16 hours ago, foshi said:

i have a good vitesse 1600 box i can bolt in

no you cant the input as said is much longer and the spline is bigger that the 4 cyl input shafts 

if the tooth count matches you could fit your 4 cyl input intoa 6 cyl box but tooth profile and tooth count must match 

you cannot fit a 6 cyl clutch hsg to a 4 cyl car unless you want the gearstick in the back seat 

its far too deep 

if noisy in 1 2 3  but quite in 4th then its looking like mainshaft spigot or layshaft spindle brgd have failed 

no oil is the cheapest option 

Pete

[foshi]

oil all good the box code is YC and it has a remote gear change so thinking early dolomite, checking engine number confirms it as a dolomite TC. going to give it a try now i have removed tunnel cover paul

[foshi]

oil all good the box code is YC and it has a remote gear change so thinking early dolomite, checking engine number confirms it as a dolomite TC. going to give it a try now i have removed tunnel cover paul back from a quick run without cover 4th gear is quite others make the same noise as when in reverse which obviously is non synchro  nice smooth gear change though. also found a note book saying the diff has been uprated , anyway back to the box rebuild replace ?only intend doing 30 miles a week in it paul

[Josef]

YC would’ve originally been in a 1500 RWD, and should be a 3 rail 4 synchro  box. Unless Triumph used the same codes on both 3 rail and single rail boxes, which I didn’t think was the case?

If you do rebuild it, and I’m right about the above, check the speedo drive gears are those specified for a Spitfire (green worm gear, white pinion). The 1500 RWD box definitely has the wrong ratio there as I have rebuilt and fitted one to my Herald. 

[Josef]

Personally I’d rebuild though. Chances of you being able to ‘just’ buy a definitely serviceable second hand gearbox are pretty low. 

[foshi]

i now know it is a 3 rail after removing the cover was told had a single rail conversion by seller paul

[JumpingFrog]

On 14/08/2022 at 14:50, foshi said:

oil all good the box code is YC and it has a remote gear change so thinking early dolomite, checking engine number confirms it as a dolomite TC. going to give it a try now i have removed tunnel cover paul back from a quick run without cover 4th gear is quite others make the same noise as when in reverse which obviously is non synchro  nice smooth gear change though. also found a note book saying the diff has been uprated , anyway back to the box rebuild replace ?only intend doing 30 miles a week in it paul

If 4th is quiet, and all others are noisy, then likely the mainshaft spigot bearing has failed, and unfortunately probably destroyed the mainshaft in the process, which is the most expensive part of the gearbox. This is the main weak point of the 3-rail gearbox, all of them had a small 0.5" mainshaft tip. Maybe you can find a better donor gearbox, buying any used gearbox will be a gamble though, but repairing yours will also probably not be cheap. You also can't use the Vittesse 1600 gearbox you have for the mainshaft, as it will be 3-synchro and the mainshaft is different.

A single-rail gearbox is stronger, the mainshaft tip was enlarged to 18mm. However, the gearchange is reportedly not as nice (never driven one, can't confirm), and also they are physically longer so you will need a custom propshaft - AFAIK, no standard length prop will fit.

Hope you can work something out.

[foshi]

have a good 1200 herald box as said not going to doing that much mileage ,in fact have 2 good herald 1 from a 1966 other 1963 , how involved single rail loads for sale paul

[johny]

You might notice a change in first gear ratio when going from your current YC box back to a Herald unit. It will be shorter but if as you suspect the diff has also been changed to a later ratio that should compensate. Its casing should have a number stamped length ways underneath to identify it...

[foshi]

so did the early dolomite 1500 TC have the 3 rail box as standard , as most dolomite ones for sale seem to be single rail paul

[foshi]

if i went with the herald option what clutch kit would i need paul

[Clive]

3 minutes ago, foshi said:

if i went with the herald option what clutch kit would i need paul

Herald option uses the same plate as currently fitted (10 spline)

If you went single rail you would need spitfire 1500 (I think!) but need to measure the existing clutch plate.

[foshi]

would a dolomite 1300 be a better option  lot  for sale would it bolt straight in better option than the herald 1200? paul

[Pete Lewis]

should be a direct fit but may need the 20 spline  clutch disc to match 

the couplings may need a swap 

pete

[foshi]

so is the clutch on the 1500 different pete, not worried about buying  replacement so long as i can obtain all the parts needed 

[Pete Lewis]

if the 1500 had a single rail box it would have  the 20 fine rolled splined and  disc to suit  as far as i know

you would need to check measure the throw out travel/angles using a 3 rail box of you can run into clutch clearing /slave travel hic ups 

Pete

 

 

[foshi]

the box fitted is a 3 rail  the 1300 for sale is a 3 rail paul