Stripping down for respray

[Dave the tram]

Finally getting round to sorting some minor bodywork issues on my GT6, including rubbing right down then a respray, all with a nearby company at Darley Dale in Derbyshire. Leaving the body on but stripping all components off it then trailering it to them - saving about £1500. This keeps it within my budget of 3k (plus an extra 1k as backup for the surprises) as I didn’t want try mastering both welding and spraying. Ok with spanner’s but didn’t want this to be a barely successful learning experience with bodywork. It also needs a bit of repair to the front outriggers, the bits that support the bonnet and bumper - either plating the bottom or new sections welding on. Question is, am I ok to remove the anti roll bar to help him get at things and still drive the car about - not on the road but around the yard etc. I’m pretty sure it is, but wanted a second opinion. Then the winter job of building everything back up all cleaned and smart. I was tempted to do a full body off but I don’t think it needed it and didn’t want it off the road for a year! It will never be perfect or concours and I just prefer using it as my regular car. Will let you know how it goes.

Cheers

Dave

[Colin Lindsay]

Yes, it just helps steering when on the road plus excessive rolling so driving without at low speeds is no problem.

[daverclasper]

I seem to remember that some folk reckon handling improved without them!. Cant remember any details or which model of car though  

[NonMember]

Some Heralds (and most Mk1 2000 saloons) never had anti-roll bars from new. You can happily drive without it if you don't mind a bit more body roll. What Daver is remembering is probably that the ARB encourages understeer, so without it you get better turn in - although with a car that's prone to oversteer that isn't necessarily a benefit.

[Dave the tram]

Interesting about the handling, but I think the current handling of mine is spot on, even in the wet - with the anti-roll bar. Mk 3 with swing spring, fully adjustable  gaz shockers, lowered a bit at the front to balance what must be a slightly sagging rear spring, giving it very slight negative camber all round, rather than the bit of positive at the front as standard. This looses some of the self-centring but don’t mind that as it feels very sharp while not at all tail happy. Unlike most comments I’ve read, I set the shockers well above half way so quite firm even though I use it as my regular car, but I like to drive it like a sports car! Falken Sincera 165/70/13 work for me and made a real difference in the wet, being slightly softer compound I think.

Can’t wait to build it back up all shiny and with no underlying rusty bits.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Dave the tram]

Well so far so good and 3/4 there with the strip down, although the final bolt to remove the rear bumper (behind the fuel tank) took nearly as long as the rest of the work put together after much swearing, skinned nuckles and mugs of tea. Hoping that I’ve labelled all the bits well enough, especially all the disconnected wiring. There comes a point when you start to wonder if you should have gone a step further and done a full body off - but that would still have been a big step, probably not needed and I want it back on the road asap. One door left to dismantle and with this one I’ll take more photos and label meticulously how it goes back. Done it before bit always tricky.

It will be nice cleaning and polishing everything then building it back up with all new bolts.

One bit of advice needed so far - the opening rear windows that the Mk 3 has. I can see the 4 pop rivets along the hinged edge so don’t need to remove any more trim to get at them with a drill, but does it work just using self tapping screws to refit?

Cheers

Dave

[Casper]

Quote

slight negative camber all round, rather than the bit of positive at the front as standard. This looses some of the self-centring 

Surely it's castor, not camber, that defines self centering

C.

[chrishawley]

1 hour ago, Dave the tram said:

the opening rear windows that the Mk 3 GT6 has. I can see the 4 pop rivets along the hinged edge so don’t need to remove any more trim to get at them with a drill, but does it work just using self tapping screws to refit?

Very possibly not. The pan head of the screws is most likely to foul the leading edge of the q-light and prevent the window from closing. An additional feature is that if the q-light has been on and off the vehicle a few times in it's life then the holes get oversized and generally manky.

So blind rivets are really the preferable option. If the holes are really out of shape then peel rivets can be a solution.

Great caution needed when refitting: The 'jump' of a riveting gun as it snaps closed can result in a dent in the wing all too easily.

[Josef]

2 hours ago, Dave the tram said:

especially all the disconnected wiring

The wiring is simple enough on these cars that with a wiring diagram and a bit of thought you can’t go too wrong  I rewired my Spitfire from scratch as it came with mostly blue spaghetti instead of an actual loom! 

[Dave the tram]

I think you are right about the self centring Casper. Thinking about it, on my car it might be complicated by the fact that I replaced the original worn rack with an aftermarket one that was a bit stiff and after many miles is still not fully loose, so I’ve got used to the fact that you have to help it a bit with the straightening. It got rid of the ‘play’ along with rebushing the universal coupling. The rack doesn’t have the shim adjuster but has a seal where it should be. However, from handling it off the car, I think it’s the ball joints at the ends of the new rack that were tight. I decided to let them bed in rather than take it apart again and investigate. Still, I’m very happy with how it drives and handles. Another strange issue I had when I first got it, it started to wander and float above 60mph. Taking the front spoiler off improved things, which is counter- intuitive, but correcting the slightly high front end did the trick. Also, the front of the bonnet hinge is set at its highest adjustment so as to clear the rocker cover and top hose clip, so I guess all these small things add up.

[Dave the tram]

I’m beginning to realise you are right Josef, the wiring loom is not actually that scary and I had no problem fitting a headlamp relay recently. My car even seems to have the correct colour wires mostly!

[Dave the tram]

Hmm? Regarding the rear quarter window hinges - as I don’t understand the riveting terms you use Chris, and don’t have the tools, it might be prudent to leave these on and let the bodyshop man handle it. He can ether work round them leaving them on or remove them then refit them for me I think.

cheers

Dave

[Dave the tram]

Also, any tips on removing the chrome trim around the Mk3 KAM tail?

Dave

[chrishawley]

1 hour ago, Dave the tram said:

Also, any tips on removing the chrome trim around the Mk3 KAM tail?

Tail trim is mostly self-evident: Top and bottow strips are each retained by half a dozen or so special edge clips. Can be well rusted in place so proceed along the strips gently and progressively prising to wiggle the strips free in stages. Or to put it another way the 'don't do' is to start at one end and forcefully prise it off fully - likely to lead to bent trim. Replacement clips are available but original clips are better fit so conserve if possible. Note that top and bottow strips are different length and curvature.

The left and right 'horseshoes' were originally retained by each by four edge clips (of a different sort to the long trims). But this arrangement was never that satisfactory and adhesive may have been applied by PO. So, again, gentle, progressive prising. Mark the horseshoes 'L' and 'R'  on removal (makes refitting easier).

If horseshoes were to be replaced with better ones (repro or previously used) then there can be problems. Repro items are not faithfull to the original shape and even originals vary in how they sit when fitted. Thus if any of the four trim items are to be replaced it's not a bad idea to trial fit everything back before repainting to confirm that refitting, after painting, will be trouble-free.

 

 

[Dave the tram]

Many thanks Chris. Will proceed as advised. Trim In fairly good condition I think so will do my utmost to preserve it and any clips I find. Drivers door to dismantle then nearly there (see pics). Will need advice at some stage on the inner and outer top gutter seals to the door glass, which I’ve never quite understood. The picture of the special tool use in the manual doesn’t really explain it. The other door wasn’t a problem as the inner one was missing and the outer rubber strip one had disintegrated and been glued on! So everything fell out leaving a big gap to lift the glass and assorted fittings through.

I’ve been on a tight schedule as the date with the bodyshop has been fixed for some time, then I got a date for my cataract op in a few days which halved my prep time, so pleased that it’s largely gone well. At least I’ll be able to see what I’m doing when I reassemble over the winter, with two good eyes and no time constraints.

Having a garage with a pit is such a bonus and has helped me keep the underside in good nick over the years.

Cheers

[chrishawley]

I hope the cataract procedure goes well without any complications.

Nice to see a picture of the car: Looks a very promising basis for a respray.

The inner and outer seals to the door glass are not as simple as the ops. manual implies but I guess that's a bridge to cross in due course.

[Colin Lindsay]

On 10/09/2022 at 18:53, Dave the tram said:

One bit of advice needed so far - the opening rear windows that the Mk 3 has. I can see the 4 pop rivets along the hinged edge so don’t need to remove any more trim to get at them with a drill, but does it work just using self tapping screws to refit?

My rule of thumb is to replace like for like, but that goes for shape as well as method - if it's a rivet, try the same rivet, but if that doesn't work, try to find a nut or screw with the same shape and size of head, flat, countersunk or whatever. If, as Chris has posted, the holes have been ovalled or worn then you may need a different solution in behind, but as long as the heads are the same profile and size, then the window will still close as it should. 

[Dave the tram]

Car all ready to go to the bodyshop next week - I shall miss it! I think my wife may have noticed the big pile of removed bits in the basement spare room! Surprising just how much there is for such a small car.

No big surprises with bodywork so far, except the top edge of a door near the quarter light that’s a bit cracked due to previous rust. The door looked perfect until everything removed and is otherwise sound so will get them to do a repair job.

My main concern is how they will approach the front chassis rot. Chassis looks completely sound all the way back from the antiroll bar. I check and inject regularly as I have a pit. The front bits  back from this get a useful coating of oil of course, even though there are no significant leaks.

The front main chassis rails are ok, but for a small hole under one anti-roll bar attachment, but the front sections that hold the bonnet and bumper are fairly rotten at the bottom. Likewise the bracing pieces to the front cross member, although the cross member itself looks solid. It’s a question of whether they plate the bottoms of these and fashion a repair, or prefer to cut away and fit new sections. Worst case before labour would be about £350 for parts (from Rimmers for example) for these 4 sections and the front cross section if needed. 

Has anyone experience or advice on this, incase they come back with options? I guess an extra challenge will be getting everything aligned properly with new bits, although I don’t think it’s that good now, from a previous owner rebuild many years ago. I’ve warned them about getting the bonnet bulge clearance right, both with bonnet fitting and the top hose clip etc. in case they’ve not done a GT6 before.

Cheers

Dave

[PeteH]

8 hours ago, Dave the tram said:

No big surprises with bodywork so far, except the top edge of a door near the quarter light that’s a bit cracked due to previous rust. The door looked perfect until everything removed and is otherwise sound so will get them to do a repair job.

I have a crack/defect where the front of the Quarterlight Fits. Driver door, Herald 13/60 C-V. My suspicion is it to be from P-O`s using the quarterlight to open/close doors or even as a lever/handle for entry /exit?. It had been brazed, not welded too.

Pete

[Dave the tram]

Hi Pete

Interesting, many people start using doors as a lever either in very low cars or as they get older! In my GT6 if parked next to a high kerb I’m stepping up out of the car! But my defect is gradual rusting due to water ingress I think through poor weather strips etc. Should be easy to fix/bodge.

By the way, where in the East Riding are you - I went to Hull Uni many years ago  then stayed on in Humberside for a few years - the east coast from Spurn Head to Whitby was my old stomping ground.

Dave

[chrishawley]

 

A most tricky matter - so please regeard any comments I make as 'thoughts' rather than 'authoritative advice'.

If the current alignment of bonnet, bumper, overriders, quarter valances (etc) were good or very good then I incline to preserve as much of the existing structure as possible. Even 'preserving' means excising the hinge boxes, making repairs on the bench, and rewelding, for example.

But if the existing alignment is poor, perhaps due to previous repairs or impact damage, then the first step is to be able to define what is causing the poor alignment. If new components are to be welded in position that has to based on what corrections need to be made.

The area under the ARB bracket will commonly ammenable to easy local repair - although if the inside of the rails are heavily waxed that can be a problem for a welder.

The gussets (bits at the side) are not problematic since they strengthen the front end structure but don't contribute importantly to alignment.

But the positioning of the hinge boxes and crossmember requires great precision. A lot depends on the prior experience of the person doing the repair. Nor can one expect reproduction hinge units and crossmemebers to 'fit from the box'. I can't remember the last time I had a repro repair section that didn't require corrective work prior to fitting. Getting it wrong can be cheap: Getting it right can be £££s. Properly done it involves initial positioning with tack welds, rivets (or whatever) then performing a full trial assembly of all the items (bonnet, bumpers, overriders, Q.valances, grill etc) and only making definitive welds once good alignment is proved. Optimal alignent can involve additional steps such as shimming, moving the location of holes where there are bolts and cutting and rewelding the bonnet hinge tubes.

Of great importance is not to proceed to painting the vehicle without having seen for oneself that the panel alignment is up to one's expectations based upon a full fit up. I've had a situation of painting a GT6 then finding the overriders didn't fit. Not a good moment!

Hope that at least gives you some thoughts about how to proceed.

 

 

 

 

[Gary Flinn]

14 hours ago, PeteH said:

I have a crack/defect where the front of the Quarterlight Fits. Driver door, Herald 13/60 C-V. My suspicion is it to be from P-O`s using the quarterlight to open/close doors or even as a lever/handle for entry /exit?. It had been brazed, not welded too.

Pete

Pete

I have seen this door skin crack on quite a few Heralds/Vitesse's, usually Convertible models.

I always thought it was due to the top of Quarter light catching the top of the 'A' Post when going over pot holed roads and causing flexing and strain on the door?

I suppose using the quarter light to Open/Close the door could cause the issue too.

Gary

[Dave the tram]

Chris - your comments where very useful and directed my thoughts nicely. I think I have 3 things working in my favour here.

1 - The current fit is not that bad - bonnet fit and gaps are good, bumper and quarter valances a little less so but these can be adjusted, shimmed etc.

2 - The main chassis rails and the cross member look ok so this will help with maintaining alignment. It might be that the bottoms of the side gussets and the hinge supports can be repaired in situ.

3 - I’m not as fussy as some, especially about the bits you can’t see, so as long as these chassis sections end up solid and rust free, I don’t care if it’s a bit patched up. It will never be a ‘show car’ and I just want it to look fairly smart and drive well, while knowing that everything is solid and pretty rust free. 
 

I will update when the bodyshop have dug into everything a bit.

Cheers

Dave