Ongoing power drain issue

[jagnut66]

22 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

if its charging and does it actually go flat (well low enought to not start) 

Yes, it has done, several times and quite quickly.

7 hours ago, Wagger said:

If there is an unwanted load that cannot be found, fit a battery isolator. That will stop unwanted drain.

If I can't find it, then that's a good option.

6 hours ago, johny said:

All this could be clarified very quickly by setting the multimeter to the highest DC amp scale (maybe changing lead positions on it) and, with the ignition off, connecting the meter between a battery terminal and its disconnected lead. You dont have to touch anything else to see if theres a drain current showing - please put us out of our misery Mike!

I was going to have another go at the weekend but I don't want anybody to suffer a breakdown......... 😉

Best wishes,

Mike.

[jagnut66]

2 hours ago, DerekS said:

At risk of nagging, Is there a boot light fitted? If so, is it going off and staying off as it should?  Can be a problem...

Derek.

I had to check, no boot light fitted

At present, because one would be useful.

7 hours ago, johny said:

please put us out of our misery Mike!

Nothing????

Yet, when both battery leads are connected, as I said in an earlier post, there is a very clear, continuous, drop when the car is switched off.

So, although I don't think we're "chasing nothing", I am beginning to think I am chasing a shadow. And one that might drive me to distraction.

Therefore I think the next thing I will do is source a battery isolator, any recommendations?

Best wishes,

Mike.

[johny]

Strange, wonder if the meter is ok. With it connected in series to the battery, on opening a door you should see a reading when the interior light comes on?

[jagnut66]

I'm looking at one of these, that connects to the negative terminal. Nice and straightforward.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174830931957?itmmeta=01HPMDQZM78TH7TVABWB483BB0&hash=item28b4bc4ff5:g:~zgAAOSwjhJg5XeC&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwFQMgxCKOYXj%2ByTfJLV9nQVDo3VpvdC%2BgTtR1ZeronsHI%2FFUPvNqs%2FcbxoYE0fozQsby%2FOscUDfcaKwl193u4lg47A%2BdL8RsdIV%2Bz7gUXkyvU4J9Usmq%2FCvJRNEbMi0RJbQD6f0gXonmKSFXPQFh9hR9eVpA%2BtYiC%2BRXXbaari4vXf5Q7%2FuP04tSEveKihdJYxsAfueV0HAaf3UDhZxPtZYqzUc606h28Er%2BlqYVWzwnWV5w2s0GlDVfpc3U44jTyg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABlBMUKb63421Yw

Will this still allow the radio retain it's memory (stations) though?

Best wishes,

Mike.

[PeteH]

On 13/02/2024 at 18:00, jagnut66 said:

Do you have a link(s) to the set up you use?

Just simple panels from Aldi or Lidle, only about 15W, so no chance of overcharging, but sufficient over the long term to compensate for internal loss`. they are attached to the Fall pipe on the south side of the garage which get Sun for most of the day.

Pete

[PeteH]

2 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

Will this still allow the radio retain it's memory (stations) though?

Depends on the Age/Quality of the Radio?. Some do/did have internal batteries (similar to those found on some computer motherboards) to keep the settings. I have one of those isolation connectors in my tool box, came off another vehicle.

Pete

Edited February 14 by PeteH

[SpitFire6]

4 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

Snip*************

Yet, when both battery leads are connected, as I said in an earlier post, there is a very clear, continuous, drop when the car is switched off.

Snip*************.

Hi Mike,
are you referring to the voltage dropping from 14 volts to 12.6 Volts?

Or

Are you talking about the voltage dropping from 12.6 Volts to a lower voltage?
Cheers,

Iain.

[jagnut66]

11 hours ago, SpitFire6 said:

Hi Mike,
are you referring to the voltage dropping from 14 volts to 12.6 Volts?

Or

Are you talking about the voltage dropping from 12.6 Volts to a lower voltage?
Cheers,

Iain.

Taken from my original post:

Quote

 

During which I put my meter across the battery, it read about 14.5 volts, I switched off and it dropped to about 13.5, then carried on dropping whilst I watched.........

I disconnected the alternator (to rule out backflow), no effect. The coil, no effect. The radio, no effect. The starter motor, no effect.

Then I disconnected the positive lead from the starter solenoid. with just the earth lead connected to the battery the volt reading started to go back up!?

I walked away and left it a while to make sure it wasn't my imagination.

It had dropped to a reading of 13.19 volts.

It now read 13.27 volts.

 

To summarise: with the engine on it charges at about 14.5 volts, the drop off starts when I switch the engine off and continues, past the point at which I can no longer turn the engine over, until the battery is flat or I disconnect the positive lead.

13 hours ago, PeteH said:

Depends on the Age/Quality of the Radio?

Fairly new, so hopefully okay then.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[johny]

Well if no external leakage that only leaves internal and a duff battery Im afraid.....

[Wagger]

Have you fitted a new fuse box or is it as built? It sounds like something is wired to the permanently live fuse that should be connected to the one that becomes live when the  ignition is on. OR, if you have fitted a multi-way fuse box, someting is permanently live that should not be.

Added accessories may have complicated matters.

[Unkel Kunkel]

16 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

I'm looking at one of these, that connects to the negative terminal. Nice and straightforward.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174830931957?itmmeta=01HPMDQZM78TH7TVABWB483BB0&hash=item28b4bc4ff5:g:~zgAAOSwjhJg5XeC&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwFQMgxCKOYXj%2ByTfJLV9nQVDo3VpvdC%2BgTtR1ZeronsHI%2FFUPvNqs%2FcbxoYE0fozQsby%2FOscUDfcaKwl193u4lg47A%2BdL8RsdIV%2Bz7gUXkyvU4J9Usmq%2FCvJRNEbMi0RJbQD6f0gXonmKSFXPQFh9hR9eVpA%2BtYiC%2BRXXbaari4vXf5Q7%2FuP04tSEveKihdJYxsAfueV0HAaf3UDhZxPtZYqzUc606h28Er%2BlqYVWzwnWV5w2s0GlDVfpc3U44jTyg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABlBMUKb63421Yw

Will this still allow the radio retain it's memory (stations) though?

Best wishes,

Mike.

If it is one that completely cuts off the connection, no it wouldn’t.

There are types where a  there is a fused link crossing the isolator - this allows a 12 V current to pass subject to the size of the fuse.

They can used as an anti-theft device in the sense that a small current  can flow to maintain things like the radio memory, but if someone tries the starter  (very high current), the fuse blows.

but in the situation you describe, If there is a parasitic drain, then one with a fused link may not help  -depending on the size of the current, fuse rating.

  I’ll risk asking a daft question, on the basis that 1. I have a tendency to and  2. My rather simple   view on things is ,   ‘common causes  ’  are common and rare causes   are rare, so eliminate the  common causes first.

So, forgive me but - How good is the battery ?

-If you charge the battery up then just  leave it alone unconnected to anything, what happens? Does it keep its charge?
If there is doubt or wish a more speedy answer, suggest  perhaps connect a 12v bulb (s) of fairly high wattage and seeing how quickly it discharges  or better  still a battery discharge tester 

 

 

 

[johny]

But theres no measureable external leakage current🤪

[SpitFire6]

Hi,

I deleted the previous post as I now read as it starts at 14.5 & drops to < 12. 
The battery is dead.
Cheers,
Iain.

[Wagger]

Well done Unkel.

If any lead acid battery is fully charged and left to stand diconnected overnight, the voltage at the terminals should be above 12.6 volts. Under 12 is knackered.

So, was it as simple as that after all our surmising?

[jagnut66]

1 hour ago, Wagger said:

Have you fitted a new fuse box or is it as built?

The Herald started life without a fuse box and I have simply added inline fuses for things I have added, like the radio and 12V charge point.

37 minutes ago, SpitFire6 said:

The battery is dead.

Ahhh............ 

You are not the first to suggest this possibility, however, as it accepted a charge from my charger and then happily sat on 'charged and maintaining' until I disconnected said charger, I discounted this. That said though, with all other possibilities exhausted, I guess that leaves only one (rather expensive these days) remaining option. Still at least (once purchased) it's an easy job to do.

For the record the battery has been disconnected from everything since the last test, I have checked it and it had settled around 13V, obviously when reconnected it starts to drop further.

18 hours ago, johny said:

Strange, wonder if the meter is ok. With it connected in series to the battery, on opening a door you should see a reading when the interior light comes on?

Sorry, I meant to reply to this one earlier, my interior light only works intermittently, another job on the 'to do' list. However, switching the lights on and then off again does cause the battery voltage to drop and then rise once more.

50 minutes ago, Unkel Kunkel said:

There are types where a  there is a fused link crossing the isolator - this allows a 12 V current to pass subject to the size of the fuse.

This looks a better option then:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/315155671580?epid=7028124817&itmmeta=01HPPB8JJ8Z1734Z7FCQ0DF003&hash=item4960bdea1c:g:-lAAAOSwRAZlcEmL&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4Dmg811Ee6SV8gE0AaBamkVTBaDOK25fL%2B%2BIErbkaR1dnk6g4%2Fqq%2BiV8BEaKauJCM2jOFQJvQ2HUtwMp3Y6U3I0punCHdiiRX16PoTrhFSkjWl3pv%2BAmRO%2FBUrZn5vwoVf0femR1ipW5YuLqGmEoWExbKbJkegUVAl0iszu0tMpqL8W2HGgB4Eu41l0DPn8rhrLPgorksM%2BDYQH0XmqAIT5cu44x4R1yPRAEpRjwHTXh6QKshsYf7EgppfuBhrEvSsP%2Fp5RDr3PiGb4nmpSWCEnd8Pc5HNrRaAPzpkuweqAH|tkp%3ABk9SR7Cposu1Yw

Best wishes,

Mike.

 

 

[johny]

1 hour ago, jagnut66 said:

This looks a better option then:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/315155671580?epid=7028124817&itmmeta=01HPPB8JJ8Z1734Z7FCQ0DF003&hash=item4960bdea1c:g:-lAAAOSwRAZlcEmL&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4Dmg811Ee6SV8gE0AaBamkVTBaDOK25fL%2B%2BIErbkaR1dnk6g4%2Fqq%2BiV8BEaKauJCM2jOFQJvQ2HUtwMp3Y6U3I0punCHdiiRX16PoTrhFSkjWl3pv%2BAmRO%2FBUrZn5vwoVf0femR1ipW5YuLqGmEoWExbKbJkegUVAl0iszu0tMpqL8W2HGgB4Eu41l0DPn8rhrLPgorksM%2BDYQH0XmqAIT5cu44x4R1yPRAEpRjwHTXh6QKshsYf7EgppfuBhrEvSsP%2Fp5RDr3PiGb4nmpSWCEnd8Pc5HNrRaAPzpkuweqAH|tkp%3ABk9SR7Cposu1Yw

Best wishes,

Mike.

Surely that one would allow the 'drain' current to flow so not improving the situation😭

[Wagger]

Before you give up on the battery, charge it, leave it disconnected overnight, then connect up and try to start next day. Check how many start ups you can do. If it can do ten, then it is ok.

A battery isolator that does not completely disconnect the battery will be no good to you if there is a permanent load draining it. Just disconnect the battery when the car is standing until you find the drain, if there is one.

Do not fit things like a voltmeter, radio etc unless it is NOT permanently connected.

[jagnut66]

7 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Do not fit things like a voltmeter, radio etc unless it is NOT permanently connected.

The radio only has the memory circuit as a permanent live, standard for many car radios I believe and never a problem on any car I have had before?

As an aside, I removed the courtesy light switches from the A posts, pulled the wires on each side, cut off the old connectors, cut back the wire to good clean copper and fitted new brass bullet connectors. 

The switches looked manky, so I've ordered new ones. The driver behind this was that, apart from looking bad, a couple of the retaining clips snapped off.

Plus, with new connectors attached, when the wires were earthed, the courtesy light works again (both sides tested). 

Unfortunately, with the wiring for the door switches disconnected, the battery voltage still drops, so not the answer......

Best wishes,

Mike.

 

Edited February 15 by jagnut66

[jagnut66]

15 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Before you give up on the battery, charge it, leave it disconnected overnight, then connect up and try to start next day. Check how many start ups you can do. If it can do ten, then it is ok.

I have been charging it, but I will give this test a go, once it's fully charged again. We shall see.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[SpitFire6]

Drum roll...😀

[SpitFire6]

Hi,
if a standard battery is 60Ahr.

You have about  720Wh when the battery Is fully drained & 144Wh available periodically without drastically decreasing the life of the battery. (You prolong the battery's life by not discharging below 80% SOC.)
Leaving the headlamps on for an hour is around 100Wh. The car should be able to crank and fire after an hour. if the car will not crank the the battery is suspect.
To crank and start the engine takes around 1Wh. An alkaline AA/pencel is around 3Wh.
Cheers,
Iain.

 

[RedRooster]

Also check your starter solenoid for leakage to ground. 

[Unkel Kunkel]

Regarding testing batteries.

Just a suggestion:
I bought one of these a few years back for about £15, it was on offer at the time.

 

My reasoning was that if I only ever used once it was cheaper than buying a new battery or alternator if it demonstrated  I didn’t need to.

Importantly for me, it is very simple to use.

I’ve used it  a few times since - and  loaned it out more times.

Edited February 18 by Unkel Kunkel

[jagnut66]

2 hours ago, Unkel Kunkel said:

My reasoning was that if I only ever used once it was cheaper than buying a new battery or alternator if it demonstrated  I didn’t need to.

Thanks, I'm now watching one on eBay, link below for others interested.

2 hours ago, Unkel Kunkel said:

Importantly for me, it is very simple to use.

I'm also more than happy with this being the case! 👍

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166395782142?itmmeta=01HPYZEFP4M3G05BSXS9FPSDE6&hash=item26bdf623fe:g:sJEAAOSwQUFlOLj1&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAABAMifqZN4tNCiBHfOklcjUrMRw9bVdizBAswxBtACNkKbT%2BYMna13U0pvKLbkFhlO8symTz3bSEDZi%2BY41zvFRsITUYfIwsr6SOC2uLeiNeKoNikmoB%2BPVWHSs9ED0V6mNFkeBEiun1du3A7mEn4aDBR5Wy71oO7M9bO1ldJUz4TJEceEoGqNMfvLt0xARcN9WxRkw%2BArrYZcSCNas7hcULpfQY%2F09KrU%2BRW7cSuKbZJ%2BV8AZMXMlmNSupB68TmNIjAaV5RYwfuqNFu1Sca0sBb4hn0DwFg%2FSHMuXV8Kzite2et3asPW6nhDH06CvREMl9%2BZSEYhuckAHuJH%2F2C6lJHI%3D|tkp%3ABFBMnvu537dj

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Wagger]

Have we established whether or not you have unwanted current drain ONLY when the battery is connected? If the voltge only falls when it is connected you have an unwanted permanent load. A new battery will not cure that.

We seem to be going round in circles here instead of finding out what the problem really is.