Triumph Vitesse MKII Rear Spring help.

[Bob]

Hi, 

I am a recent new owner of a Triumph Vitesse MkII and then subsequently a new member to the TSSC - already loving it.

Anyway to my issue. I knew that when I bought the car that the rear end was low/sagged and she has slight negative camber. So I am trying to establish if the spring is in need of replacement. It is a bit tricky getting photos, but I enclose what I have. I have seen info on changing the springs pads, but looking I do not see that my spring has the facility for these - I could be wrong. Also I think the wheels fitted have the wrong offset and sit very snug to the wheel arch as a consequence - would this affect the force on the spring??

I am sure I have not supplied enough information initially for anyone to really help fully, but I can of course provide more when I know what is required.

Many thanks

Bob

[Works Spitfires]

From your pictures it looks like you have a few less spring leaves than a standard rotoflex MKII Vitesse.

Standard spring has 11 leaves, might be worth counting yours.

[Gary Flinn]

Hi Bob

It's hard to tell how many leaves you have fitted but it looks like a few have been removed to presumably lower the car, or you may have a GT6 Mk2 or early Mk3 Spring fitted which won't be strong enough. 

As stated by Works Spitfire a Mk2 Vitesse spring should have 11 Leaves in total and it is a different set to the earlier cars

Here's an article done by a guy called John Thomason which was featured in the courier magazine and also a photo of a an original Mk2 spring I refurbished for my old Mk2 Vitesse

Be aware that there are 4 of the rubber Buttons per side and note the dimensions and free arc height of the spring when fitted and when out of the car. 

The offset of your wheels won't affect the camber to any great extent which should be slightly positive 1 or 2 degrees max on a Mk2 Vitesse

Regards

Gary  

 

Edited April 3 by Gary Flinn

[Bob]

Thank you for the responses. I will count the leaves tonight. I am pretty certain that there are seven, so I assume that leaves have been taken out.

This leads on to the best approach for remediation, as I would like her a little higher. Is a new spring required? as I guess that there is no place to buy spare leaves, if I identify the leaves that are missing.

 

Thanks again Bob

[Gary Flinn]

28 minutes ago, Bob said:

Thank you for the responses. I will count the leaves tonight. I am pretty certain that there are seven, so I assume that leaves have been taken out.

This leads on to the best approach for remediation, as I would like her a little higher. Is a new spring required? as I guess that there is no place to buy spare leaves, if I identify the leaves that are missing.

 

Thanks again Bob

Bob

It looks like the spring's been modified then, or is possibly a GT6 one?

Although the chart states a GT6 MK2/Early Mk3 spring (Roto-flex type) should have 6 leaves not 7?

Be careful with some of the Repro springs, I fitted one during the rebuild of my Vitesse and it sagged after 12 months or so, if you can find a good second hand one that is within the dimensions stated in the chart above then you can strip it clean and refurbish it with new Thrust buttons and Spring Eye bushes for minimal expense

Alternatively, a new one will be around £300, I believe Canley Classics have them made by a UK Company so it's worth getting in touch with them.

Be aware that ideally you will need a spring lifting tool to remove and replace the spring safely (This supports the spring till all the tension is removed), keep us posted how you get on.

Regards 

Gary 

[Works Spitfires]

1 hour ago, Gary Flinn said:

Alternatively, a new one will be around £300, I believe Canley Classics have them made by a UK Company so it's worth getting in touch with them.

 

Yes in Sheffield no less, where all the best steel comes from.

I'm not sure anyone else is replicating this spring because of the minimal sales on it. If there was an option for an imported one like there is for most of the other models they would be a lot cheaper.

We did have a customer recently who came to us after being told by another supplier that a Vitesse MKI spring would fit (and be suitable for) his MKII! 

 

[Bob]

Gary

 

Thank you. You mention a spring lifter. I had seen threads on this previously .Some said you could get from the shop, but I do not see this. Any ideas as how I can find this? 

 

[Gary Flinn]

Bob

If you can weld they are not too difficult to make, alternatively some 41x41 Unistrut type Channel and some sturdy 'U' Clamps/bolts can be used, I don't think the TSSC sell them although you may be able to borrow one off a nearby Club member, I had one but sold it when I sold my Vitesse.

Here's a picture of One I've pinched from a previous post and the dimensions from a Workshop Manual, also one in use on my old Vitesse

 

Spring Lifter Dimensions.pdf

[PeteH]

Snap!!. The relavent page from the Haynes manual:-

Pete

[Gary Flinn]

38 minutes ago, Works Spitfires said:

Yes in Sheffield no less, where all the best steel comes from.

I'm not sure anyone else is replicating this spring because of the minimal sales on it. If there was an option for an imported one like there is for most of the other models they would be a lot cheaper.

We did have a customer recently who came to us after being told by another supplier that a Vitesse MKI spring would fit (and be suitable for) his MKII! 

 

I purchased a supposed Mk2 spring in the mid 1980's for my Mk2 Vitesse from John Hills the Triumph people in Redditch, it turned out to be for a Mk1 model and I ended up ruining the Roto-flex drive couplings!

The John Thomason article mentions using an earlier 2 Litre Swing axle spring to lower and stiffen up the rear suspension on a Mk2 model, but I wouldn't advise it unless you have the CV driveshafts fitted.

Regards 

Gary 

[Works Spitfires]

16 hours ago, Gary Flinn said:

I purchased a supposed Mk2 spring in the mid 1980's for my Mk2 Vitesse from John Hills the Triumph people in Redditch, it turned out to be for a Mk1 model and I ended up ruining the Roto-flex drive couplings!

The John Thomason article mentions using an earlier 2 Litre Swing axle spring to lower and stiffen up the rear suspension on a Mk2 model, but I wouldn't advise it unless you have the CV driveshafts fitted.

Regards 

Gary 

Its only the two outer leaf clamps that would damage rotoflex couplings if you accidently fitted a MKI spring. 

If you look at a genuine MKII roto spring the two outer clamps are bent around the leaves instead of being bolted. 

You can replicate this (if you felt the need) by removing the bolts from the outer clamps, and hammering the legs around the bottom leaf. In effect that's all they did on a roto spring anyway.

[Gary Flinn]

50 minutes ago, Works Spitfires said:

Its only the two outer leaf clamps that would damage rotoflex couplings if you accidently fitted a MKI spring. 

If you look at a genuine MKII roto spring the two outer clamps are bent around the leaves instead of being bolted. 

You can replicate this (if you felt the need) by removing the bolts from the outer clamps, and hammering the legs around the bottom leaf. In effect that's all they did on a roto spring anyway.

Yes, I believe that's what happened.

The shape/set of a Roto-flex type spring is different too if you look at the measurements in the chart from John Thomason, its got far more curve to it, presumably something to do with getting the correct camber throughout the suspension travel when fitted.

Although the Mk2 Roto-flex type suspension works well, it is a pain to work on and expensive to rebuild, I can see why people fit CV joints or the uprated Swing Springs to the MK2 Vitesse models.

Gary 

   

[Pete Lewis]

we had a swinger kit we fitted to the Vit6  it just got lower and lower and 10deg neg camber 

needed two of the shocker bump stops removing to get any ride travel 

it got dumped and a courier spring and 1 " lowering block to replace it 

so my experience of a swinger on a Vitesse was its just hopeless

Pete

 

[Gary Flinn]

1 minute ago, Pete Lewis said:

we had a swinger kit we fitted to the Vit6  it just got lower and lower and 10deg neg camber 

needed two of the shocker bump stops removing to get any ride travel 

it got dumped and a courier spring and 1 " lowering block to replace it 

so my experience of a swinger on a Vitesse was its just hopeless

Pete

 

Pete

Interesting, I thought the uprated Swing Springs for the Herald/Vitesse were the way to go to tame the rear?

However from your experience it would seem the stiffer/flatter Courier Specification spring and a lowering block is the way to go.

Gary  

[Steve P]

I have a TriumphTune  uprated decambered spring on my MK 1 CV converted Vitesse, it handles like a Go cart. Bought from Terry Hurrell in about 1988.

Not sure you would find one now though but could be copied I guess.

S

[Colin Lindsay]

A little bit of info on spring types and rates per model:

[Ian Foster]

Bob

On my GT6 Mk2, I always felt the rear springing was too soft (see chart above) and allowed big bumps to get through and too much roll. I tried SPAX adjustable shocks, but this just made the ride more uncomfortable.

When we rebuilt the car in 2010/11 I reused my original spring, but with Koni 80-1717s dampers fitted with a bespoke bracket, which also corrects the fore/aft alignment (as posted previously). I wasn't happy with the ride height so bought a new replacement spring, which I initially fitted with a lowering block, but it made very little difference and quite quickly relaxed.

I then reverted to my original spring and added an additional leaf in the centre (now 7 leaves) and the ride is actually really good now. Owen Springs made the additional leaf and actually made a pair (what cars have just one leaf spring eh?) and the second one now resides in Nick Jones's GT6 Mk3.

The roll stiffness is much improved and the car has the stance that you see in period shots of the car where the wheels sit close to vertical.

I think it OK to modify springs to get what you need, rather than looking for modern replacements, which may not deliver.

Ian

[Bob]

Thanks for all the posts and the info. Looks like I do have a GT6 spring fitted after a second look. I want to get on the road for a bit and see how the car feels, now that the weather is hopefully going to improve. It also has adjustable shocks, which when I brought it were set quite stiff, so I will try some different settings on these.

 

Ian, when you had the leaf(leaves) manufactured can I ask how you specified the requirements and where did you add the leaf?

 

Thanks Bob

[Ian Foster]

5 minutes ago, Bob said:

Ian, when you had the leaf(leaves) manufactured can I ask how you specified the requirements and where did you add the leaf?

Bob

I decided to add the additional leaf in the centre of the spring, so calculated the length accordingly and estimated the curve required based on the original leaves. Thickness also to match the original.