Need help with my Spit/GT6 conversion.

[dougbgt6]

Dick mentioned early on, blocked water ways. Have you flushed the system? Worth doing and inexpensive!

[Yakooza2]

Thanks Doug, and yes I did it several times and it seems to be all clear water and free flowing now, but just not sure how good a job was done on the reconditioning of the rad and how efficient it is at doing its job.

 

I also set the advance at idle to 6 ATDC which seem to help a bit.

 

I hear the Aluminium rads are far more efficient at doing their job and the right one for the car is available on ebay from Belgium and Denmark for around £200.

A bit steep for just trying one of them, but an alternative size and type of brand new aluminium from UK suppliers are quite cheap on ebay, it just the case of finding the right size, shape combination as an upgrade to replace the original rad. 

 

What do you think about the 20 w 50 oil being used in a recon engine? could that be a cause for over heating too?

Engine when running, does not feel loos and oil pressure reads quite high at revs above 2000. Except at idle, where it sits at about 50lb

[Dick Twitchen]

Nader, 

A standard GT6 radiator will happily cope under the circumstances; changing to an ally rad is attacking symptom not cause which in these circumstances is fairly fundamental.  I have sorted old rads by removing from car, lay flat, fill with Coke or similar, leave for a day then back flush out.  There are proprietary cleaners!

 

Is the water pump actually working?

 

An earlier post mentioned opening out a waterway hole in the cylinder, trust the it did not by accident move beyond the gasket cut out?

 

The fact that your head waterways seem 'different' is baffling.  Is it actually the correct head for the engine block and not one from a similar 6 cylinder Triumph?  The Mk1 head, just had a look at a spare in the garage, does not have the kidney shape at all but only round holes.  Need somebody with wider experience to chip in on this one.

Dick 

[Pete Lewis]

as a thought have you placed the gasket on the head and block do the coolant ports all align ?

 

did you run a die nut  down the studs to clear any crud form the threads ?

 

it has  definitely not got a fire ring recess around the bore periphery ??

 

there is a water distribution (brass fabricated ) tube  in the cyl head pump outlet cavity ?

 

just some odd ideas     Pete

[Mike R]

Hello, thought I might be able to help a little. I put together the attached diagram when investigating some slight overheating issues a few years ago.

My advice would be not to jump into upgrades as standard should work ok - better to fix the cause. Also try to be systematic, eliminating causes by investigation rather than jumping into replacing random parts.

Sorry if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs here ... But here are a few thoughts

 

Questions I would ask:

I would think there are three immediate causes of fluid loss via cap:

- cap failure - seems unlikely from symptoms, but try to rule out.

- head gasket failure

- boiling cooling water

Head gasket failure - sounds like you've ruled this out - worth being sure though. I understand you would normally see water in the oil or oil in the water or excessive steam from exhaust when hot.

That then leaves boiling cooling water.

 

So why would that happen:

- high frictional heat load i.e. overtight engine as you mention or lean mixture can cause a hotter engine.

- no or reduced flow through block due to broken water pump or blocked waterways.

- reduced cooling capacity due to stuck thermostat, fouled radiator core, poor air flow through core.

 

So is the bottom hose getting hot? With slow flow temperature differences are higher, i.e. cold water going into engine becomes very high temperature leaving and high temperature entering radiator becomes cold coming out. Whereas a radiator that is just struggling to cope with additional heat load will have a bottom hose temperature that follows the top hose temperature at a reasonable difference. A poorly radiator will give very little temp difference at all.

 

How do you know the pump is fine? I think i read somewhere that impellers can become damaged or spin on the shaft so that the pump no longer works.

How hot is the gauge reading when water starts ejecting? Might be worth checking where 100degC is on your gauge by putting the sender in a pan of boiling water whilst still wired up. You can do this by having a kettle right at hand in the garage (also useful for emergency tea) or a camping stove is better. Note water at 13psi boils at 119degC.

 

Anyway hope that is of some help.

Mike

[haggis]

Hi Yakooza, I feel your frustration. Having just stripped a KE & HC engine, I was looking at the picture of the head you posted.

Now there is a post on here from me about Pistons, in which I had similar questions regarding water holes in heads. My pictures show a late MK2 vitesse head waterways.

 

My thinking is that the head maybe wrong for the engine, I was thinking of swapping mine around but the waterways didn't seem to line up properly.

 

Just a quick question has your KE engine got flat or domed pistons?

 

I ask this because I have a domed head (they are taller than the flat top piston ones) sat in my garage I could take a look at to see if it matches your pic or not.

 

Hag

[Yakooza2]

Hi Yakooza, I feel your frustration. Having just stripped a KE & HC engine, I was looking at the picture of the head you posted.

Now there is a post on here from me about Pistons, in which I had similar questions regarding water holes in heads. My pictures show a late MK2 vitesse head waterways.

 

My thinking is that the head maybe wrong for the engine, I was thinking of swapping mine around but the waterways didn't seem to line up properly.

 

Just a quick question has your KE engine got flat or domed pistons?

 

I ask this because I have a domed head (they are taller than the flat top piston ones) sat in my garage I could take a look at to see if it matches your pic or not.

 

Hag

Hi Hag, thanks for the sympathy, I have been through a lot with this particular issue, but I am not ready to give up yet.

 

The pistons on my engine are flat top. hop it helps.

 

Although I am slowly beginning to think that the chap who sold me the engine, just picked up bits from all he could find to complete the picture.

 

But we shall fight on.

 

Nader

[Yakooza2]

Hello, thought I might be able to help a little. I put together the attached diagram when investigating some slight overheating issues a few years ago.

My advice would be not to jump into upgrades as standard should work ok - better to fix the cause. Also try to be systematic, eliminating causes by investigation rather than jumping into replacing random parts.

Sorry if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs here ... But here are a few thoughts

 

Questions I would ask:

I would think there are three immediate causes of fluid loss via cap:

- cap failure - seems unlikely from symptoms, but try to rule out.

- head gasket failure

- boiling cooling water

Head gasket failure - sounds like you've ruled this out - worth being sure though. I understand you would normally see water in the oil or oil in the water or excessive steam from exhaust when hot.

That then leaves boiling cooling water.

 

So why would that happen:

- high frictional heat load i.e. overtight engine as you mention or lean mixture can cause a hotter engine.

- no or reduced flow through block due to broken water pump or blocked waterways.

- reduced cooling capacity due to stuck thermostat, fouled radiator core, poor air flow through core.

 

So is the bottom hose getting hot? With slow flow temperature differences are higher, i.e. cold water going into engine becomes very high temperature leaving and high temperature entering radiator becomes cold coming out. Whereas a radiator that is just struggling to cope with additional heat load will have a bottom hose temperature that follows the top hose temperature at a reasonable difference. A poorly radiator will give very little temp difference at all.

 

How do you know the pump is fine? I think i read somewhere that impellers can become damaged or spin on the shaft so that the pump no longer works.

How hot is the gauge reading when water starts ejecting? Might be worth checking where 100degC is on your gauge by putting the sender in a pan of boiling water whilst still wired up. You can do this by having a kettle right at hand in the garage (also useful for emergency tea) or a camping stove is better. Note water at 13psi boils at 119degC.

 

Anyway hope that is of some help.

Mike

Hi Mike, Thanks for showing interest with lots of good hints and points.

I am holding off the purchase of a new rad on the advice of a few here on this forum.

The head and block face was skimmed and new correct/quality gasket fitted.

No oil and water mixing up and no steam from the exhaust

Circulation is good and the pump works OK (I think), because when from cold with the cap off and engine started, I can see the water being drawn down the radiator to allow for more top up.

The temperature of the water entering the rad is very hot to touch and equally as hot at the bottom (Poor air flow) or weak electric fan !

Engine feels tight, ( I am thinking thinner oil to replace ) !

Just one thing, the fan was taken off the spitfire, since the GT6 engine came without one ( size/number of blades ) !

 

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers

 

Nader

[Yakooza2]

as a thought have you placed the gasket on the head and block do the coolant ports all align ?

 

did you run a die nut  down the studs to clear any crud form the threads ?

 

it has  definitely not got a fire ring recess around the bore periphery ??

 

there is a water distribution (brass fabricated ) tube  in the cyl head pump outlet cavity ?

 

just some odd ideas     Pete

Thanks Pete, As usual, I am grateful for all the help and advice.

Trust me when I say I checked all of the points you have raised here, before putting the head back ( more by luck than judgement ), but I did not notice fire ring 

Can you send me a picture of what that might look like? picture might just prompt me to remember.

Cheers

Nader

[Yakooza2]

Nader, 

A standard GT6 radiator will happily cope under the circumstances; changing to an ally rad is attacking symptom not cause which in these circumstances is fairly fundamental.  I have sorted old rads by removing from car, lay flat, fill with Coke or similar, leave for a day then back flush out.  There are proprietary cleaners!

 

Is the water pump actually working?

 

An earlier post mentioned opening out a waterway hole in the cylinder, trust the it did not by accident move beyond the gasket cut out?

 

The fact that your head waterways seem 'different' is baffling.  Is it actually the correct head for the engine block and not one from a similar 6 cylinder Triumph?  The Mk1 head, just had a look at a spare in the garage, does not have the kidney shape at all but only round holes.  Need somebody with wider experience to chip in on this one.

Dick 

You know, when you are in the thick of things, you seem to over look some basic stuff.

Thank you for information about the head and possibility of it being from another triumph.

This might be a silly question, but apart from water ways ( which they do seem to line up in this case ) is there a reason for the head, assuming it is from another car, causing the over heating? After all it looks and fits right.

It's getting too complicated and long winded, perhaps I should just put an engine from a modern car that works, and done with it. An MX5 maybe.

Blasphemy, I hear you say.  

Nader

[Clive]

If you really think it is the radiator, there is a cheap alternative in the form of a Golf rad. Needs a little bit of fabrication to fit, and also using a header tank (which is an improvement, all cars now use this arrangement)

 

There are instructions/pics available on the Web. Rad cost is about £30 new.....

http://gt6-efi.blogspot.co.uk/2007/03/other-stuff-cooling.html

[Clive]

Oh, wasn't expecting a preview thingy of Roy's car! 

 

And to reiterate, the Golf rad is only a suggestion. A good gt6 rad SHOULD be adequate, but the golf rads are about 30% of the cost allowing for the extras.....

[Yakooza2]

Thanks Clive

After all the disappointments, "a little" work on rad modification is no problem and I am up for that.

 

Just why is the rad tilted forward? is it head clearance needed? or is it for better airflow?

Just couldn't see the mounting points or fixing brackets though.

 

Is the front shroud a necessity?

 

At the moment, the cost is not an issue, I am just itching to get on the road this summer. It's been a long time waiting for it to be on the road.

 

Nader 

[Pete Lewis]

I  raised the problems of the gasket fire ring , as this mix and match  has caused lots of coolant disasters over the years

 

later engines had a recess or groove cut around  the top of the block bore to support the gasket fire ring , ie its not just a flat  face, 

    you cant mix the gaskets ,  

  if the block face is totally flat the gasket is rectangular.

  if there is a  recess then the gasket has a small tab sticking out the back of the head .

 

    there are cases when  reface block or head is needed  but in general they are pretty reusable and not a problem ,  providing they have not been Cooked at sometime in their life.

[Yakooza2]

I  raised the problems of the gasket fire ring , as this mix and match  has caused lots of coolant disasters over the years

 

later engines had a recess or groove cut around  the top of the block bore to support the gasket fire ring , ie its not just a flat  face, 

    you cant mix the gaskets ,  

  if the block face is totally flat the gasket is rectangular.

  if there is a  recess then the gasket has a small tab sticking out the back of the head .

 

    there are cases when  reface block or head is needed  but in general they are pretty reusable and not a problem ,  providing they have not been Cooked at sometime in their life.

Thanks Pete for the clarification of the fire ring.

I have seen the block  face and there was no traces of a fire ring recess and the gasket was the one without a tab.

 

Assuming the gases are contributing to the over heating, apart from possible visible bubbles through the radiator top, how else can I eliminate that?

Remember the head was tested OK and the block face was a bit off in the middle, but rubbed down all even now and fitted back with a new gasket and torqued down twice now.

 

I am still thinking around the radiator being a problem area. 

I was watching one of these Utube  videos taking about radiators and fans/shroud and air flow and they said the 4 core radiators are the worst for loosing heat.

Link below.  Let me know your thoughts.

 

 

Nader

[Yakooza2]

If you really think it is the radiator, there is a cheap alternative in the form of a Golf rad. Needs a little bit of fabrication to fit, and also using a header tank (which is an improvement, all cars now use this arrangement)

 

There are instructions/pics available on the Web. Rad cost is about £30 new.....

http://gt6-efi.blogspot.co.uk/2007/03/other-stuff-cooling.html

Top video, very informative. But I think some where in there he said Scirocco rad ! I have checked and it is the perfect size for the job and on ebay as a new one, sold for £95 and the extras like fans/bottle and so on around another £100. if this solves my problem, it is money well spent.

[Pete Lewis]

Has the head face coolant leak been solved successfully now?

 

Couple of simple ideas for coolant being blown into the bottle are

air lock , raise front of car when filling stuborn fillers

The thermostat must have a jiggle pin bleed hole in the rim to let air out

does the radiator cap match the depth of the rad filler seating

 

Combustion gas from a gasket problem will give a stream of bubbles seen in the filler , create air locks quite easily

and the expanding gas blows water out by unloading the filler cap valve.

Its unlikely to ever have oil in water or coolant in sump unless its been realy catastrophic

as a failing gasket will contain the 7-13lbs water jacket pressure but not 1000Lbs of combustion pressures,

Pete

[Yakooza2]

The coolant leak from the head and block was sorted by skimming the block face and a new gasket.

I don't see a stream of bubbles from the rad top and certainly no airlock to begin with, Ie, when I fill the rad, I take a hose off the heater to let air out and then force water down it, till it flows out of the radiator.

 

Cap and the stats are new and cap is 13lb stat is 72 deg. cap makes a good seal at the rad neck.

 

But worryingly, the water pushes passed the cap seal and into the bottle and spraying all over the shop at alarmingly high temperature. Never mind making tea, you can skin potatoes with it.

 

Sounds like gases leaking into the water ways, doesn't it? 

How and where do I start to check for the problem?

 

Nader

 

Has the head face coolant leak been solved successfully now?

Couple of simple ideas for coolant being blown into the bottle are
air lock , raise front of car when filling stuborn fillers
The thermostat must have a jiggle pin bleed hole in the rim to let air out
does the radiator cap match the depth of the rad filler seating

Combustion gas from a gasket problem will give a stream of bubbles seen in the filler , create air locks quite easily
and the expanding gas blows water out by unloading the filler cap valve.
Its unlikely to ever have oil in water or coolant in sump unless its been realy catastrophic
as a failing gasket will contain the 7-13lbs water jacket pressure but not 1000Lbs of combustion pressures,
Pete

[KevinR]

Before you go any further you need to do a combustion gas in coolant test to check if it is combustion gas in the water or not.

 

Most garages have the test kit, and you can buy it on Ebay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Leaking-Cylinder-Head-Gasket-Block-Test-Kit-Detects-Exhaust-Gas-in-Radiator-/331718244537?hash=item4d3bf2b8b9:g:y3UAAMXQatBSamF0

 

Unless there is an undetected crack in the block somewhere, I don't think your problem is combustion gas related - and using the test equipment linked to above will prove it.

 

The most likely cause is trapped air somewhere in the system.

A very minor leak in the water pump can also cause the same problem - it lets air in !

 

[Pete Lewis]

also the pump is a circulator  its not  a 'Pump'  it needs a continuous unbroken supply between input and output   if there's an air gap then there is great chance it will not circulate  hence the high temperatures peels the spuds 

 

I used a one of those  kits  borrowed from  our development  guys , not been used for years and the sintered filter in the top was unknowinly blocked

it blew the tapered bung and sample out over the fence some 30ft away ....

 

Pete

[Yakooza2]

Before you go any further you need to do a combustion gas in coolant test to check if it is combustion gas in the water or not.

 

Most garages have the test kit, and you can buy it on Ebay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Leaking-Cylinder-Head-Gasket-Block-Test-Kit-Detects-Exhaust-Gas-in-Radiator-/331718244537?hash=item4d3bf2b8b9:g:y3UAAMXQatBSamF0

 

Unless there is an undetected crack in the block somewhere, I don't think your problem is combustion gas related - and using the test equipment linked to above will prove it.

 

The most likely cause is trapped air somewhere in the system.

A very minor leak in the water pump can also cause the same problem - it lets air in !

 

Is this a one time use kit only? a bit pricey for elimination of gases, but I guess it's worth it, if I can look else where for the problem.

On the subject of air blockage, it seems like a lot of people have at some time or another experienced this. It must be seriously stubbern air lock to not go away, since I have drained and filled the system at least a dozen times by now.

Mind you, Pete's experience of one blowing up worries me, I have had a few close shaves with the boiling water aiming at my face and hands, just as I was opening the cap thinking the unit is cool enough.

 

Just a point, before I took the head off the water hoses used to get pretty firm with pressure as well as very hot, cylinder 3 and 4 face of the block was a few thou below the surface, so hence the block face rub down to level off. but now the hoses seem softer, but still very hot.

Could this be a clue as to the gases from chamber?

 

Nader

[Pete Lewis]

Theres enough liquid to do many tests

 

if the cap is 13lb then you wont squeeze the hose it will be very firm if its a 7lb cap then lesser

but still a good pressure expanding fhe hoses combustion gasses should unload via the cap without

exess presure building up, if its hydraulic pressure it takes longer to dispell the coolant out than just releasing gas, dont comment on that description!!!!

 

pete

[Yakooza2]

Theres enough liquid to do many tests

 

if the cap is 13lb then you wont squeeze the hose it will be very firm if its a 7lb cap then lesser

but still a good pressure expanding fhe hoses combustion gasses should unload via the cap without

exess presure building up, if its hydraulic pressure it takes longer to dispell the coolant out than just releasing gas, dont comment on that description!!!!

 

pete

Thanks for the info and the link to Ebay.

Bought the kit and it should be with me by mid next week.

 

The cap is a new 13lb one, and the hoses were quite firm to squeeze before the gasket change, but after, it seemed a lot easier to squeeze. 

 

I am not usually pessimistic, but should this test kit prove the block is at fault/cracked, then I am faced with buying another engine (short block) or just go back to the original 1500 engine or something totally different.  

 

I don't suppose anyone here on this forum has a GT6 short block for sale?

 

Will update you all next week with the result of the test.

 

Nader 

[Yakooza2]

Before you go any further you need to do a combustion gas in coolant test to check if it is combustion gas in the water or not.

 

Most garages have the test kit, and you can buy it on Ebay - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Leaking-Cylinder-Head-Gasket-Block-Test-Kit-Detects-Exhaust-Gas-in-Radiator-/331718244537?hash=item4d3bf2b8b9:g:y3UAAMXQatBSamF0

 

Unless there is an undetected crack in the block somewhere, I don't think your problem is combustion gas related - and using the test equipment linked to above will prove it.

 

The most likely cause is trapped air somewhere in the system.

A very minor leak in the water pump can also cause the same problem - it lets air in !

 

Thanks Kevin

I bought one on Ebay and will do the test next week, when I get the kit delivered.

 

But if you were to look for a crack in the block, where do you start and if internal crack, would it not show along the cylinder walls somewhere? The face of the block was crack free.

I thought I had a very good look at each cylinder, when the head was off and they appeared OK, but maybe I should have looked harder.

 

Nader

[Pete Lewis]

We look fwd to the results, I still think whilst you have back filled and bled that this level of expasion is

generated by air lock somewhere, in the block and stat area

Gt6 are not the easiest to refill as I said some lift the front of the car up high, to allow the low filler to vent

 

pete