Vitesse Mk2 - No Spark

[Paul H]

Hi - Trying to restart my Vitesse  -  Petrol at the carbs but no output from Distributor 

Background

My Vitesse last ran on 30th December 2017 - all fine 130 miles on the day 

Since then she has been off the road with the following electrical work

Old fuse box removed - replaced with 2 x 10 blade fuse boxes - 1 box is Ignition fed the other is permanent live . All electrics work including 5 relays .

New Starter added - High Torque variety from the Club

Dynamator ( Alternator ) dded replacing existing Dynamo 

Original regulator removed & rewired

The Distributor is Accuspark Electronic in a Delco 6 Distributor supplied by Accusparks and worked fine up to 30th December last year - About 1000 miles , no issues 

Coil is Accuspark Red - 1000 miles no issues 

I have fuel at the carbs but no spark 

The Coil reading between the positive and negative is 3.1 Ohms 

The output is 9600  ( + or - ) connected to HT output ( My understanding is that the Coil is ok with these readings )

The Delco dizzy has red and black wire connectors - Red goes to +  Black goes to - 

The white ignition feed ( checked and its live with ignition on ) goes to + on the coil 

Being a numpty I initially put the white ignition cable on the negative , tried to start with no spark .

I rang Accuspark and they were very helpful and suggested I had blown the Ignition Electronics in the Delco with the reverse wiring - Replacement is £40 but because I have purchased before they are sending me replacement kit for £20 inclusive of postage which I was pleased with 

To continue I removed the Delco & replaced with a spare dizzy Lucas 25D6 with conventional points gapped at 15thou - Before switching dizzys I moved the fan manually  around so the rotor arm pointed to Cylinder 1 The Lucas has only one wire which goes to - on the coil - The White ignition feed goes to + on the coil . 

Tried to start - still no spark so guess Im doing something fundamentally wrong and maybe the Delco ignition  electronics are ok 

Any help and advice welcomed as dont know what to check next 

Paul 

[Guest]

Paul.

Do you get a spark with the king lead (coil to dizzy) just testing the dizzy end of the cable removed from the dizzy ??

If no, try replacing the king lead with a known working cable and teat again. If you get a spark then the king lead is faulty - these do suddenly give up.

Next, forget the dizzy and work on the coil. Do you have continuity from each of the coil terminals when tested independently ?? If yes then the dizzy is at fault - if no then the coil MAY be working intermittently, although Accuspark Reds are very reliable.

Not comprehensive, but a start.

Regards.

Richard.

 

[dougbgt6]

Sounds like you have the wiring right with points. If you take the HT lead off the top of the rotor cover and hold it near to ground, do you get a spark when you turn over? If not the points aren't right. With the ignition turned on and the points closed open the them with an insulated screw driver, any spark? Have you installed the points and capacitor correctly? Is there voltage to the points?

Doug

[dougbgt6]

Damn you Richard! You're too quick for me!

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

Simple check  connect a pea bulb on the coil neg and earth 

If the points are operating or the electronic is triggering ok the bulb will flash as you turn it over

If it is constant theres a point /lecy  unit  problem  creating a constant earth

If its dead its a coil or  ign  feed problem

Do check you have at the coil 12v when when switch on and also when you crank it ...as possible switch fault

Pete

[Paul H]

Thanks all - Focusing on the coil is the first thing to do tomorrow , I have another coil if necessary + spare leads and a pea bulb 

The issue is becoming more clearer and at the end of it I will be a little wiser 

Regards 

Paul 

[dave.vitesse]

I agree with Pete the start point is to establish you have a 12 volt supply to the coil. If yes then are the points switching the coil voltage. The coil resistance reading you have would indicate the coil is OK. The next move is on to the HT lead between the coil and dizzy. If it is a suppression lead then it should have a resistance between 2k too 6k ohms. If not a suppression lead then the reading should be 1 ohm. If all OK then on to the roto arm and dizzy cap. It's unlikely all the spark plug leads would be faulty, a few would cause a miss-fire, but it should still start.

There is a fault find flow about this.

Dave

  

[NonMember]

With the engine stationary but ignition on, dizzy cap off, open and close the points using a plastic (non-conducting) rod (you don't want to touch it). If the LT side is all OK then you will see small sparks at the points. Big sparks means the condenser's failed. No spark probably means a bad connection so the coil isn't charging. Although Pete's bulb method is also useful for this.

[JohnD]

Small addendum to Non-Member's uuseful post.

Capacitor can fail two ways.     

1/ as described, it no longer works as a capacitor and the spark at the points gets bigger. But the points will still work and you should get a spark at the plugs.

2/ the insulation in it fails and it conducts, shorting the points, so current passes through it, not them.   Result, no spark, there or the plugs.  This is the more common failure that leads to ignition failure.   

Cure for either, remove capacitor!  

John

[Paul H]

Update 

Used a pea bulb between coil neg and earth - turned over no flash 

Used pea bulb on positive coil & earth , turn on ignition , light goes on , switch again and turn over engine , light stays on ( so switch wiring is ok ) 

So its the Coil or the HT lead , Tried to get a spark holding 2 different HT leads against retaining nut on rocker - no spark  ( is this a good enough earth test ?)

I measured ohms with positive with HT outlet - still 10,000 approx

I measured ohms with positive with HT lead connected to HT outlet - approx 15,000  ( didnt understand this reading ) 

I have found another coil see pic - 3.9 across the + & - and 10,000 across HT & + or - ( so looks ok to try ) Dont know the coil's history as came with car as spares 

Any thoughts ? could I kill a coil by initially adding ignition wire to negative instead of positive ?

Thanks in advance 

Paul 

[dougbgt6]

5 minutes ago, Paul H said:

used a pea bulb between coil neg and earth - turned over no flash 

 

17 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

If the points are operating or the electronic is triggering ok the bulb will flash as you turn it over

The points aren't working!

Try NM's test with the screwdriver.

Doug

[Paul H]

9 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said:

 

The points aren't working!

Try NM's test with the screwdriver.

Doug

Hi Doug - no power at points , no spark when opened with screwdriver 

Paul 

[dave.vitesse]

Ignition on - With the bulb connected to the neg terminal on the coil when the points open the bulb should light up. 

If it does not then fault is  - No 12 volts on the pos teminal of the coil or Points closed up, not breaking, or Capacitor short circuit to ground or LT wiring of coil open circuit.

Dave

[dougbgt6]

Paul,

OK Dave says could be low tension wiring on the coil open circuit. Disconnect the wire from the coil -ve and ground it. Do the screw driver test again, if there's spark it's the coil.

Dave am I right? 

Doug

[dougbgt6]

No, hang on, if the bulb's between ground and the coil -ve it doesn't matter if the LT is open circuit or not. No flash means there's something wrong with the points/capacitor or their wiring.

Doug

[dave.vitesse]

Doug, you feed 12 volts to the coil pos terminal of the coil. If you then connect a bulb to the neg terminal to ground. This means the points and capacitor are in parallel across the bulb to ground.  If the points open then 12 volts is present and will light the bulb. Anything that takes the 12 volts to ground will stop the bulb from glowing. Points not opening or a short circuit capacitor. 

If the coil LT winding is open circuit then there will be not 12 volts present on the neg terminal of the coil as there is no electrical path through the coil.

Dave

[JohnD]

All this faffing with a bulb!  A multimeter that will measure anything you're likely to wnat will cost less than a tenner.    Despite their "forbidding" appearance, they are simple to use, and will tell you if you have 12V, 10V or whatever!   Then they can measure the resistance in the coil, which yer bulb can't.     Less than 1 Ohm across the Low tension terminals, 10KOhm of more between one of them and the central HT terminal - so your Gold coil may not be well, Paul.

(But you have a MMeter, as you quote resistances - good!)

John

[dave.vitesse]

Paul,  the coil  windings resistance you gave sound OK. i.e. HT 9,600 ohms and LT 3.1 ohms.

The LT winding on a 12 volt coil should be 3.0 ohms so 3.1 is OK. 

The LT winding coil could be intermittent. But in this case it sounds more like a short circuit capacitor.

Dave  

 

[Paul H]

Hi , getting closer to solving the issue . In one of the previous posts Dave made a mention of LT , which I hadnt got a clue what it meant so googled it and found how to test the LT circuit

One of the tests is to measure the voltage from the CB "-" terminal and earth with ignition on - Meter should read 12 my Vitesse is ZERO , 

Quote

If it reads zero there may be a break inside the coil winding, or a short circuit to earth inside the distributor or in the LT lead.

Next test was to disconnect the CB terminal and measure again - Voltmeter should read Zero My Vitesse is above 12 Volts  

Quote

If the reading rises to about 12 volts, the distributor or its LT lead may be short circuited to earth.

The other noticeable issue is the Coil is getting hot - not sure if this is only with ignition on or permanently - My Aldi temp gauge showed 30 C  ( so battery disconnected for the time being )

My reading is that the capacitor - I thought it was a condenser might be duff so will remove and retest 

Pic shows current setup with CB wire detached 

 

Regards 

Paul 

[dave.vitesse]

Paul, The LT circuit is the pos and neg terminals on the coil. LT stands for Low Tension or 12 volts. The HT circuit is the coil centre connection to the the neg terminal.  HT stands for High Tension or the high voltage applied to the spark plugs.   Condenser is the old term for Capacitor. They are the same thing.

The coil will get hot if the ignition is left on.

Sorry to get too techy.

Dave

[Paul H]

Hi Dave - thanks for explanation - I enjoy learning ! because at the end I will be a little wiser maybe knowledgeable enough to help somebody else  

Paul 

[dougbgt6]

Dave, 

Yes,  you're correct a  momentary aberration, I was distracted by Eurovision. 

Doug

[Paul H]

I have a spark at the plugs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I replaced the capacitor and I now have a spark, with the analysis that the capacitor was earthing the distributor .

One test I did was to measure the current from the CB side to earth with Ignition on and points closed - Test should be zero but I got 0.8 volts 

The suggestion is poor earthing somewhere but not sure where to go on this issue - I'll take a break now and start the Vitesse tomorrow 

Thanks to all your input and I am definitely wiser and need to write this up in case I need it in the future  

[dave.vitesse]

Well Done Paul, a good days work.

Dave

[daverclasper]

One question of yours Paul. I had the imput to the coil onto the negative terminal, for months before I noticed it (didn't seem to make any difference to how the car ran. when I swapped it to positive, but I understand it can).

Also I have read, if the ignition is on for too long, without the engine running, it can burn out coil ?.

I'm pretty new to thoroughly diagnosing ignition/electric problems myself, so struggle sometimes. Also in books, there seems to be quite a few ways of skinning a cat.  

Good luck with it.

Dave