Improving a Vitesse 2L Rear Suspension

[JohnD]

"Economy Runs" used to be a poplar variant of road rallying, but not nowadays.       Surprising when you consider the realtive cost of fuel.

John

[Pete Lewis]

theres a link on here somewhere in the past i cant find with video of the mobile ecconomy run in the 60s  some good results from cars youve forgotten

eg pics  http://www.hantsandberksmc.org.uk/archive-economy-runs-59-66/4591542579

 

pete

[Clive]

34 minutes ago, JohnD said:

"Economy Runs" used to be a poplar variant of road rallying, but not nowadays.       Surprising when you consider the realtive cost of fuel.

John

But driving for economy just has very little appeal. Speed is king. Unless you wear beige...

The RBRR used to have an award for economy, but that stopped. Somebody kept winning (by a huge margin) in an Acclaim. That was tuned to be super economical ...think it averaged over 50mpg over the 2000 miles. And I thought my Toledo (2 litre TR7 engine) was pretty good doing 37mpg.

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, clive said:

 Speed is king. Unless you wear beige...

 

That sort of comment has killed many a person over the years. One of the reasons I gave up reading Practical Classics and the like was their disdain for basic cars, and their never-ending praise for bigger and faster. 'Boring family classics'.... well, they may be, but 'young driver killer' isn't really a label to brag about.

[JohnD]

I do know what you mean, Clive and Colin, I don't think economy runs would be for me, at least not more than once or twice, but like driving well, speed is not all.     Roadcraft, as taught by the Police System for generations now, emphasises "Progress" rather than speed, and the Five Phases of any manoever, as well as Observation and Awareness.     These are all skills that can be honed on the road, when outbraking, overtaking and the racing line are ONLY for the race track.       When  road driving I try to use the System, and it is satisfying especially when, for example,  you correctly predict that the idiot at the next junction WILL pull out ahead of you, but you are in the best position to prevent a collison.   The same might apply to driving to best economy. 

John

[Roger]

Very interesting thread! Personally I’m not too worried about ”tuck under”. The thing that really scares me is that these cars sometimes loose a wheel a while driving. It can be front or rear, trunnions or drive shafts. I bought my first “swing axle” Triumph when I was 17 (I’m 52 now) and I have been driving these cars for 30+ years. When I was young I used to drive my 13/60 “as if I had stolen it” most of the time. Never ever experienced any “tuck under” (and I would prefer not to go into details about how I used to drive it). Maybe I was a bit more experienced than the average 18 year old since I bought my first car when I was 14 and I drove on the ice during the winters and I learned (usually the hard way) about “brake before the bend, accelerate when you go out of the bend” as described in this thread. Ian, I have a MkI Vitesse and if I improve my rear (or front) suspension then I would focus on keeping the wheels attached to the rest of the car rather than worry about “tuck under”.  I’m not saying “tuck under” can’t happen, but you really have to push it to the limits before it happens. That is my experience, just some thougths. /Roger.

[johny]

Thats got me wondering Roger because I can feel my back end starting to want to tuck under very easily when going round a roundabout! If Im going just slightly too fast in my Mk1 Vit it feels like a good dab on the brakes would have me on my side again😲 As far as I can tell my suspension has no excessive wear so maybe I need to look at the rear wheel toe in or, as the spring hasnt flattened very much like some, even a lowering block .....

[Colin Lindsay]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

  Roadcraft, as taught by the Police System for generations now, emphasises "Progress" rather than speed

John

Well do I remember the phrase: 'Make progress!" and also the saying: "Anyone can drive fast, but not everyone can drive well."

[Roger]

7 minutes ago, johny said:

Thats got me wondering Roger because I can feel my back end starting to want to tuck under very easily when going round a roundabout! If Im going just slightly too fast in my Mk1 Vit it feels like a good dab on the brakes would have me on my side again😲

I have to add that the driving experience I refer to is to 97ish% driving a Herald 13/60. The Vitesse engine has the weight "of a small planet" as someone wrote on a forum which can explain why we have a different feeling when cornering? 🤔

[JohnD]

Hi, Roger!  We met at Stratford if you recall?

I'm not surprised that you couldn't get tuck under whne ice driving.    No grip = no lean in corners as no weight transfer.   As you will know more than most, ice driving is completely different!  More like driving on loose gravel, which Swedes also excel at.

John

[Roger]

2 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Hi, Roger!  We met at Stratford if you recall?

I'm not surprised that you couldn't get tuck under whne ice driving.    No grip = no lean in corners as no weight transfer.   As you will know more than most, ice driving is completely different!  More like driving on loose gravel, which Swedes also excel at.

John

Yes, it was a pleasure John. I haven't had fish and chips for a decade or so, I will remember that meal!

No lean in corners I agree about, but there is a indeed a little bit of grip if you have studded tyres. There are usually cracks in the ice also, and when you hit them going sideways then you learn a lot  about swing axels 🙂

[johny]

13 minutes ago, Roger said:

I have to add that the driving experience I refer to is to 97ish% driving a Herald 13/60. The Vitesse engine has the weight "of a small planet" as someone wrote on a forum which can explain why we have a different feeling when cornering? 🤔

But you have a Mk1 Vitesse now dont you Roger?

[Roger]

1 minute ago, johny said:

But you have a Mk1 Vitesse now dont you Roger?

Yes, I bought it about four or five year ago (still have my Herald too). Drove the Vitesse for only a year, after that it has been "a project" so most of my driving experience comes from a Herald. And I have to add that I was 18 and immortal when I drove my Herald. I was in my late forties when I finally got my Vitesse and I have never pushed that car in corners as I did with my Herald in my youth. The only thing that happened in my Vitesse was that the passenger door flew open in a bend (saloon doors in a convertible) but that was very easy to rectify. Just lean over and close the door, no worries.

[Clive]

5 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

That sort of comment has killed many a person over the years. One of the reasons I gave up reading Practical Classics and the like was their disdain for basic cars, and their never-ending praise for bigger and faster. 'Boring family classics'.... well, they may be, but 'young driver killer' isn't really a label to brag about.

But it is reference to competition, not everyday driving. You have quoted me out of context!

Really, if you feel competitively driving for economy is exciting, i would be very surprised. Would not make good spectator sport either. With vehicles, 90% is about being the quickest. I have done some regularity rallies, where the aim is to exactly match the required speed over a section (though you do not know where the section finishes until you get to it) with the speeds often changing during a section. Penalties for every second you arrive early or late. Some rallies we would only be out by maybe 100 seconds over 8 sections, but were rarely top 3 of 12....

[Colin Lindsay]

49 minutes ago, clive said:

But it is reference to competition, not everyday driving. You have quoted me out of context!

Sorry Clive, didn't mean to, but you've also done the same with me - I didn't take it as a personal statement of yours, but one I've heard many times from others, particularly the young!

[JohnD]

But family saloon cars ARE boring!  The test is, which  cars get preserved. 

When I did the Survey on Crank dampers, the 207 people who responded had owned Triumphs over the last 20 years.   The cars they had owned were

Model	% Produced of Total	% Owned in last 20 years
Saloon 2L/2.5	66	14
TR5/6	19	51
GT6/Vitesse	15	35

 

So, while of Triumph 's total production two thirds were Saloons, but only a seventh of the surviving Triumphs are Saloons.

And a third were Tr5/6s or GT6s/Vitesses, and those are five sixths of all the surviving Triumphs.

Lets face it, saloon TRiumpgs are rare birds these days.

John

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, Roger said:

Yes, it was a pleasure John. I haven't had fish and chips for a decade or so, I will remember that meal!

No lean in corners I agree about, but there is a indeed a little bit of grip if you have studded tyres. There are usually cracks in the ice also, and when you hit them going sideways then you learn a lot  about swing axels 🙂

I think that puts "driving experience" on a completely different planet!   Well, road.  Are you lake driving?  On pure ice?

J.

[Roger]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Are you lake driving?  On pure ice?

I have only driven on the Baltic Sea. Lake driving is popular in northern Sweden and Finland. I havent done it in recent years, the Winters have been too warm. But I recommend to try it if you ever get à chance, its fun! (Insurance do not cover anything when we are on the ice its on your own risk)

[JohnD]

Driving. On.  The. Sea.

Oh, Roger, that so outside anything I can imagine!

Wow!

[johny]

Think thats something all novice drivers should do! I went out on a deserted runway in the snow many years ago for a blast and it was really useful to see what it feels like when the cars going to lose grip and what you can try to do to control it👍

[Clive]

1 hour ago, johny said:

Think thats something all novice drivers should do! I went out on a deserted runway in the snow many years ago for a blast and it was really useful to see what it feels like when the cars going to lose grip and what you can try to do to control it👍

A company called Car Limits runs a "car handling" course. Simple one day on an airfield, you spend teh morning doing a "high speed corner" which is marked with comes on a huge area, and the  afternoon some mini circuits, again set out with cones. Cost is very reasonable too. I did one with my youngest daughter (in an MX5) so she could experience driving at the limit. First corner speedtrapped at about 40mph, at the end well over 70 with a nicely controlled slide and a touch of opposite lock. Good girl! She got the bug and has since done a few sessions on trackdays in my Spitfire, which she is keen on. Plus a 10 lap session in an Atom, which is quicker than my spitfire.

Anyway, I can thoroughly recommend the driving course, my daughter benefited hugely from the experience.

[Roger]

There are several companies arranging ice driving in Sweden. Too expensive, this is more like the "home made" version I'm used to...  You might not understand what they say (well John who used to live in Sweden for a while might understand a few words) but you can hear on the laughter and screaming that they have fun 🙂 Sorry about the thread drift Ian!

 

 

[SixasStandard]

Don't worry about the 'thread drift' Roger...…...I successfully exited the thread some time ago after entering with the right amount of energy, without lifting off, and then powering out with only minimal oversteer.

Regards,

Ian 

[JohnD]

Wow!  Great fun, Roger!   

In the UK if it snows, we expect the Government to sweep it off the roads, but not in the Nordic countries.   In Sweden, when I was there and I expect now, everyone has two sets of wheels, one with normal, one studded tyres, and the studs go on as soon as winter starts.      This is fine in most of the country because the snow just builds up on th roads, layer on layer,( look at how much there is on that lake!) but in Stockholm, where I was, the traffic wears it away, and you never know from one moment to the next if you are on snow or tarmac.    

They do sweep the main roads.   I drove my car from the UK in summertime, on normal tyres, but used it very little once winter started.  I drove it home just before Christmas, but I didn't enjoy the drive as Roger's friends on that lake do!

John

[Nick Jones]

Suspension summary

Swing axles, good
Light
Simple
cheap
handling is fine if properly driven, especially if lowered or with a swing spring or camber compensator.

Swing axles, not so good
In standard form, the handling definitely can bite the unskilled / unwary and bite hard.
Always tends to feel bit edgy on rough surfaces due to the amount of camber and track change.
wheel bearings and UJs fragile 
Tendency to shed wheels (with brake drum!) due to the shaft shearing.
Difficult to find a meaty enough swing spring for a Herald/Vitesse.

Rotoflex, good
Handling much more forgiving
Much reduced camber and track change means the car feels more composed on rougher surfaces
more robust wheel bearings and generally pretty long lasting (apart from non OE rotoflex rubbers).
CV shaft conversions should be fit and forget.
Wheels usually stay on.

Rotoflex, not so good
Heavy
Relatively complex and difficult to work on especially if neglected.
Aftermarket donuts sometimes very short-lived. CV conversion effective but expensive.
Wheelbearing set-up is fiddly.
Can be expensive to overhaul
Lever arm dampers best binned in favour of telescopic.