No spark

[Kiajon]

Good morning people. 

So now I can move my 1500 Spitfire again it's time to get down to the original problem. It won't start. 

So here's what I've got. Fuel to the carbs... leaks out after a few turns. A turning engine (obviously) a nicely charged battery.

What I haven't got is a spark! Took a plug out, put it against the block, turned over, no spark.

Tried the same with the HT lead from the coil, no spark. Changed coil (checked wiring) no spark.

So. Obviously I need to change the leads (it's been sat a while -12 years- so they'll be done) what else should I check? (Be gentle and presume I know nothing about cars or electrics! Because I know nothing about cars or electrics but I'm enjoying learning). Am I also right in thinking it could be the points? If they're fubar does that stop the spark from the ht lead? If it is the points is it worth changing for electronic ignition now? 

Over to your cumulative massive intelligence and knowledge base!

Cheers

Jonathan

[Pete Lewis]

i would start with the simple first ,

leads last for years ,wouldnt worry about them till its a runner of sorts

have look at the points . do they open and close when cranked over

how are the wires attached to the points spring, everything in contact with the spring not the base plate in any way

hold ht king lead near block and flash a new separate earth on the coil does it generate a spark

and a test bulb on the coil +ve  is there a feed ?? we ign 'ON'  and also when cranking ???

make sure firing order is 1342 check rotor points to no1 lead when on compresion stroke  

if unsure remove plugs  stick thumb over no1  plug hole  turn engine slow till you detect air passing thumb, then turn slow on to TDC  look at where the rotor is pointing

fuel should not leak from anywhere . wherem abouts   is this leak from 

Pete

 

 

[Kiajon]

Thanks for that check list. I’ll head up to garage in a mo and tick them off. 
The fuel leak is from the bottom of the float chamber, I think it’s just a poorly fastened connector. 

[NonMember]

Pete's list is good. The most likely reason for a car that used to run to have no spark, assuming you haven't dismantled it in the mean time, is corrosion on the points, followed by a broken wire. If you have a Delco disi the earth lead for the base plate is a weak point, and the coil LT connection to the points can fall off. Lucas are better but still can suffer similar failures.

[Pete Lewis]

 On SU if its at the base of the float chamber then the only place is the union for the fuel pipe to the jet 

are you sure its not running down  the tube from the base of the jet itself ??

 

[Kiajon]

So. The points open and close. When I open them with ignition on I get a spark across them. Is that a good thing? Now I'm dealing with my 1 year old daughter so.....

Just reading up how to turn engine over manually (I told you I know nothing but enjoy learning).

I'll upload a photo if the dissi and a vid of the fuel leak and you can tell me what I've got. 

[Pete Lewis]

a spark at the points shows the coil is being fed and the 12v part of the coil is looking operational

to turn engine over using the fan etc is not best , if on level ground engage 4th gear and nudge the car / front wheel to move the car small amounts when the points are on the highest part of the dizzy   cam you set the gap with some feeler gauges  lucas is 0.015"    delco are 0.018" need some cheap feelers and screwdriver  

Pete

[Kiajon]

I have those and the carvisbin the garage so I should be able to nudge it about a bit! 

[Kiajon]

Ok. So respaced the points and still no spark. Must admit that they look a bit furry so I'm thinking they are going to need replacing. I've attached photos of the disi and plugs set up so you can tell me if there's anything obvious (to you) wrong. Best placed to order a decent set of points from? 

[yorkshire_spam]

In my opinion there's no such place as best "to order a decent set of points from" - the modern replacements all seem rubbish to me, so I went for a points replacement electronic.

If you want to get it started without waiting for replacements - clean the points faces with some fine wet-n-dry paper.

 

[Pete Lewis]

first thing to spot is you hve a dreaded aftermarket lucas rotor arm witha darn rivet in the sweep contact  these are notorious for failing , the spark jumps from the rivet to earth at the spindle 

best get a red one from club shop or  distributor doctor,  get points as well                 

club shop link from top of page 

http://www.distributordoctor.com/

pete

 

 

[yorkshire_spam]

10 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

first thing to spot is you hve a dreaded aftermarket lucas rotor arm

Good call Pete, the Dissy Doctor ones are the ones I use.

 

[dougbgt6]

20 minutes ago, Kiajon said:

So respaced the points and still no spark.

Is this at a plug? Or the HT connection from the coil? Earlier you said you opened the points with a screwdriver and got a spark. So even if they are a bit manky and you're going to replace them, they are not the cause of the problem. So it's the rotor arm, the coil or the distributor cover? 

Doug

[Kiajon]

No spark at the plug.

Need to try the ht thing again as I'm not sure I'm doing it right. 

I'll order said new parts from the shop and we'll see what happens. 

Thanks again and please keep the suggestions coming! It's all part of my learning curve! 

[Clive]

49 minutes ago, Kiajon said:

No spark at the plug.

Need to try the ht thing again as I'm not sure I'm doing it right. 

I'll order said new parts from the shop and we'll see what happens. 

Thanks again and please keep the suggestions coming! It's all part of my learning curve! 

Pull the lead from coil to distributor off at the distributor (this is the King lead) and then see if you get a spark when cranking the engine (ignition on!!) when the end is held 10mm from (eg) a head stud or other convenient earth.

If that sparks it means the issue is rotor arm, cap or plug leads. If no spark, likely the points 

[Kiajon]

So, after giving the points a little clean I got a spark from plug 1! Result! Not much of a spark (in my view) but it was definitely a spark. This will sound like a stupid question but what does a good spark look like? I mean should I be expecting Blackpool illuminations, a bonfire night sparkler or  fire fly? I got a slightly less impressive version of the latter. I expect things might improve if I get the ignition service kit from the shop? Disi cover, points, leads, plugs etc. 

On another plus note I was surprised at how easy gapping the points was. (Ok, you know I'm going to regret that comment)

Having got a spark I plumbed in my fuel line, turned the engine over..... no start! Did have my now usual fuel leak though (see image).

 

[Clive]

Many of teh modern ignition components are kak (being polite)

Give the points a clean with a fine file (not abrasive paper) and keep the condensor. If the rotor arm has a rivet attaching the brass bit to the body throw it in a hedge or somewhere it will never be found, and use a red arm, probably sold by the club. Caps either replace, or usually a screwdriver can be used to scrape corrosion off and good to go.

The leak looks like the connection on the bottom of the float chamber. The O rings are available, moss last time I bought some but probably other places. There have been 2 ocasions where I had to double up on o rings to get a seal. But they are (were) very cheap and I always kept a few in stock. 

[NonMember]

Judging the quality of the spark can be tricky but it does sound like you're maybe not getting a strong enough one. That's likely to be caused by a combination of points, condenser and coil, though I see you've changed the coil. As Clive says, your rotor arm probably isn't helping either. Unlike him, though, I'd say you should try new points and condenser. The odds are the ones currently fitted are not original quality either, and I've found new parts generally OK for Lucas disis.

That carb leak is common on SUs and can be fiddly to fix - I had to have a few goes before my Spitfire settled down. One of the problems is that the "O-ring" (it's actually a square section rubber washer) only achieves a proper seal if the flexible pipe is fitted just so - not quite bottomed out in the housing before tightening the nut.

[Pete Lewis]

apart from the leak has the car ever run ??? 

and while in the dizzy a squirt of oil down under the top plate this oils the top spindle bush 

and a light squirt on the felt pad oiler that you  can see rubbing against the cam,  this helps the points heel wearing .

the main maker supplier of SU carb parts is https://burlen.co.uk/

you can use a sealer on the jet pipe 0 ring if all else fails but do not get it in the small pipe just on the 0 ring/olive

do not gorilla the pipe nut a firm hand tight is all thats needed if all is well inside 

you need to check with club i dont think the red (best) rotor is in the ignition kits , make sure they include a red rotor not a black one 

as part numbers in the  kit is not the red unit    its extra !!!

Pete

[Kiajon]

The old girl hasn’t been on the road for 12 years or so. It hasn’t run in all that time. Thanks for the heads up on the red rotor arm and the kit. I’ll make sure I order the correct thing. Along with an o ring. Is it worth getting a refurb kit for the carbs? How easy is it to do?
Hopefully now I can start on the ‘not firing up’ problem.

[Gary Flinn]

I Take it you have drained the old fuel and put some new in the Tank?

12 year old petrol will be no good.

[Kiajon]

At the mo I’m using brand new fuel from a petrol can (new piece of fuel hose from pump into can) as I didn’t think the fuel in the tank (what there is of it) would be any good. I’ve also popped a fuel filter in the line just to make sure. 

[Kiajon]

I’ve just ordered a red arm, condenser and points from the shop (and a new O ring and washer for the leak from James Paddock). Hopefully this will sort the two current issues! 

[Kiajon]

Morning chaps. My new points, points, condenser and rotor arm arrived and I thought I'd pop them in. Haha.

I've attached a couple of photos of my problem wire. It was just (I think) attached to the points but only just if at all (could this be the problem with the spark?)

Where is it supposed to go and how do I attach it? Am I getting the soldering kit out? 

[NonMember]

Ah ha! That broken black wire is the connection to the coil. If that's not there you get no spark. If it's hanging on by a thread you probably get a very weak spark. Quite likely to be your problem, I suspect. As to a repair, you need to fit the correct type of connector on the end. You can probably pull through enough extra for a proper cut back, strip and crimp. Try to leave a small "wiggle" in the wire once fitted, because the plate that the points are fitted to moves with the vacuum advance, so the wire has to flex and you want to make that easier.