Herald 13/60 manifold water leak - repair or options?

[Colin Lindsay]

My Herald 13/60 manifold has developed a small slow drip from somewhere under the manifold. I don't want to remove it without either a replacement (Have asked in the 'Parts Wanted' section) or else the option of a good repair, which I can't seem to find. I know other manifolds are able to be repaired with stainless pipes etc but there seems to be nothing for the 13/60. Anyone know of any repair / refurbishments that can be done?

I thought I had sourced one on eBay, but the seller very kindly updated me that this one too has pinholes which he had not previously spotted, and he corrected the listing accordingly. Any thoughts?

[Iain T]

Colin, if it's a small crack you can vee it out, cleanliness is paramount, and tig weld it. I think there are epoxy resin repairs but have no experience with them. 

Iain 

[NonMember]

Hmm... looks like a pinhole in the aluminium. It's possible it might respond to one of the Barrs Leaks type additives (not that I've ever had much luck with any of them but for such a small drip they might work). The proper repair options likely all involve aluminium welding, so not easy, or (as I see Iain just beat me to) an epoxy fix possibly consisting of drill, tap, epoxy a brass screw in.

[Colin Lindsay]

I might try Barrs Leaks as a stopgap; I'm very reluctant to take the manifold off to examine fully as I suspect it will, like most things, turn into a major repair job. I also suspect that this is why the PO had no antifreeze in the system; topping up with water is much cheaper. For now I just want to use it for a month or two before major winter layup work.

[johny]

Ive just had great success brazing an aluminium radiator of a motorbike. Really didnt expect the alumiweld kit I bought ages ago to work but with the right technique it was quite easy. The key is to make a puddle of the molten filler rod on the repair area so youd need to file or grind a small hollow. Then once its liquid you just use a scraper through the puddle to remove the aluminium oxide on the parent metal underneath and they bond. The radiator was more difficult as it was a tube that had split but its been in use now for a while with no problems👍

[Colin Lindsay]

I found this older thread on the forum; nothing in relation to 13/60s but I've sent the restorer a message just in case.

[Pete Lewis]

ever thought of running a smaller dia tube  through the existing   and making the ends back to size to hold the hose 

even a nylon  tube as an idea ???

or dump the heated manifold and hose a bypass  

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

I might try that eventually but in the meantime need a guinea pig to work on... I don't want the car off the road any longer than necessary. I've missed a few on eBay recently, £16, £20, nice low figures for parts to experiment with. I think the pipe is straight where it goes through the manifold and just curves up at the ends?

[PeteH]

Hi Posted These Earlier on another thread. My take is that it would be possible to get a 10mm copper tube inserted, if you cut the ends off the existing 1/2" Steel tube?.

Pete

 

[NonMember]

4 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

or dump the heated manifold and hose a bypass

My Vitesse is like that - the banjo bolt on the rear end of the manifold has sheared off and the easy fix was to just bypass it all.

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Mathew said:

You might and its a big might get carb icing in cold weather.

I've had that once and it was on a car with its manifold plumbing all correct (my old TR7). I doubt the heated manifold would make much difference to carb icing as it doesn't heat the carbs, at least not significantly.

[johny]

I think the intention is that on a cold start the coolant circulates through the manifold, especially while the thermostat is closed, so warming it up as soon as possible (as well as the interior heater if desired) so allowing the choke to be reduced earlier....

[Pete Lewis]

it also increases volume as hot air expands after a cold  intake which makes better atomisation 

so it aids the fuel mix   after the carbs done its job     before water heating many "hot Spots"  were generated by circulating exhaust gasses around the centre branch of the inlet manifold

which does the same but has the advantage it cant ..leak  

some exhaust heated had a flap and bimetal control which never lasted long before it all seized up

so these things help fueling but its not going to be noticed by the many if its missing 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

9 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

some exhaust heated had a flap and bimetal control which never lasted long before it all seized up

That brings back memories of my 1982 Daihatsu, which had a lever at the manifold for 'summer' and 'winter' and yes, was rusted solid so I never actually used it.

But: it's just me; if that's the way the Herald system was originally then I'll try to get back there... and am frustrated as it's presently beyond my power to do so!

[Pete Lewis]

thats a good plan  Colin     so an insert thro the failed pipe looks more promising for a 50 yr old plumbing leak 

Pete

 

[johny]

I have serious doubts that the water heating does much once our engines are up to temperature as the inlet manifold is so close to the exhaust. In fact Ive installed a small valve on the Vitesse to cut off the coolant supply hose to it (and interior heater) so that the flow is pushed round the engine and rad instead, I close it in the summer and dont notice any difference in the running except perhaps that the choke is necessary a little longer,,,, 

[NonMember]

8 minutes ago, johny said:

In fact Ive installed a small valve on the Vitesse to cut off the coolant supply hose to it (and interior heater)

The original design intent is that (nearly) all the flow through the mainfold is via the cabin heater, on the assumption that the driver would turn the heater off in the summer and thus the manifold would also not be heated unnecessarily.

[johny]

4 minutes ago, NonMember said:

The original design intent is that (nearly) all the flow through the mainfold is via the cabin heater, on the assumption that the driver would turn the heater off in the summer and thus the manifold would also not be heated unnecessarily.

Thats what I thought initially but on my Vitesse the flow is always going through the manifold regardless of the heater valve position. When you select the heater the water can then also go through it in series with the manifold. It makes sense because as I say the inlet manifold gets so hot from the exhaust that having coolant going through it continually is never going to be a problem...

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, NonMember said:

The original design intent is that (nearly) all the flow through the mainfold is via the cabin heater, on the assumption that the driver would turn the heater off in the summer and thus the manifold would also not be heated unnecessarily.

Interesting design; simple and hopefully effective.

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, johny said:

Thats what I thought initially but on my Vitesse the flow is always going through the manifold regardless of the heater valve position.

That's not uncommon. The plumbing does provide a "heater bypass" for the mainfold pipe but it's supposed to have a restrictor that reduces it to a bore so small that it only really acts as an air lock remover. However, this restrictor can sometimes rust out or be otherwise lost.

[johny]

11 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Interesting design; simple and hopefully effective.

well I think its a waste of coolant flow that I think is better used going through the engine and off to the radiator. However I do have an uprated rad with more tubes which hopefully can make use of the extra flow...

Never found any restrictor in the alloy distributor and that really wouldnt make sense as to minimise the use of the choke youd always have to have the heater valve open! 

[Pete Lewis]

3 hours ago, Mathew said:

We are getting dangerously close to silver foil in front of some of the radiator for winter driving!

and radiaor curtains , covers with poppers and worse  sorts of winter baffles .

what it does to the fan blades when it can only suck the top half of the rad  probably broke a lot of metal blades by excess cavitation 

you dont want anything to fatigue a blade we had truck fans exiting via the cab floor ...nasty things 

Pete

 

[NonMember]

14 minutes ago, johny said:

to minimise the use of the choke

... was never the point.

The heated manifold doesn't start to get hot until the engine is nearly up to temperature, at which point you already don't need the choke. Besides which, the choke is not battling manifold-related factors at all - it's needed because of the combustion characteristics of a cold cylinder. The purpose of the heated manifold is to reduce fuel puddling in the winter and, as Pete said, improve fuel atomisation in the cold air.

[johny]

Dont think thats the case as the coolant is heated rapidly in the cylinder head as the thermostat is closed and it cant escape to the radiator. This quick heating is used to warm up the manifold as soon as possible because the water pump has a separate circuit just for the manifold (and interior heater),,,

The manifold if cold (even in summer) impedes atomisation so a richer mixture is needed to compensate. If the head and manifold can warm up together quickly less choke time is required so saving fuel and emissions...

[Colin Lindsay]

Well it must be there for some reason that someone once thought necessary, so I'm going to try to keep it as is. I'm getting seriously peed off at the number of suppliers or breakers on a Monday morning who aren't replying to enquiries by e-mail, nor answering their phones. Nor has the Postman come yet, he didn't on Saturday either, so am going to have to go back to the hall ceiling replacement or cut grass, if it ever dries out enough.