CDD uprated drive shafts

[Roger]

Hi All,

It´s finally raining on The Åland Island which gives me some time to be indoors and enjoy reading our forum. There was recenty a post on fb about an accident on the M6 due to Vitesse with a broken rear half shaft. Thank God no one was hurt! I thought the post was lost in the never ending fb flow, but I found the post after scrolling down for about an hour or so...

I’m always worried that this would happen to my own Vitesse. Seems to be a very common problem. Given the fact that it can be a fatal failure I’m looking for solutions in order to mitigate the risks. Unfortunately CV drive shafts is not an option for me given the fact that I have an early 1966 Mk I Vitesse without the Rotoflex shafts. Has anyone here on the forum any experience of these uprated drive shafts from CDD? If so, has they ever failed and broke at the same spot as the original ones? They cost and arm and a leg, so I want to be shure that they really eliminate the risk of "three wheel driving" before spending that kind of money. Thanks in advance.

Roger.

 

[Pete Lewis]

common   NO    out of the many thousands  the failure rate is few and often down to things done by owners 

there is a high possibility that any drive shaft fracture has been due to fitting a wrong handed second hand shaft the torsional memory doesnt like being unwound and a crack forms 

the needle roller takes only the load to keep the trunion level in the upright  it doesnt take any cornering loads like the main bering 

freelander uj are readily available from club shop and most factors and fit the std shaft as a straight swap

the reasons this car lost its wheel is not down to the basic age or design   there will be other  problems lurking

up grades are aimed at an improvement  yes  but the main aim is your wallet 

dont let myths  empty it 

Pete

[Roger]

Thanks Pete, I'm aware of the importance of not switching them from right to left and I will certainly make sure they are maintained by the book and inspected carefully if I use the original shafts. It is indeed a lot of money. It still seem to be quite random how and when they fail. Several cases happened at low speed without any acceleration etc. But just the though of the possibility that they might fail takes away a lot of the fun when driving a Vitesse, since it makes me hestitate to use all that wonderful torque the six pot produce. Maybe I just worry too much

[Peter Truman]

I had one fail by just reversing out of the drive when I crossed the drive gutter on inspection there was a rusty crack extending half way thro the passenger shaft, obviously an old crack!! This was late 60’s and the car only 3 years old?

[Steve P]

I have said before on here, i had one fail on my MK 1 Vitesse going up a hill in Cornwall on the 2012 RBRR exiting a roundabout.The wheel departed with the hub attached. The break was at the keyway, i was looking at the shaft yesterday funnily enough as i kept it in my garage.

I went for the Roto-CV shaft conversion for peace of mind, i have owned the car since 1985 so don`t know if they were original, the odometer shows 90k miles.

I put it down to running a tuned 2.5 engine and saloon gearbox putting around 170 bhp out, maybe over stressing the shafts original limits.

I remember Chris Sherrington using a similar modern version of shafts on his T6, ( Sommers Bros?). Around the £8-900 mark i think.

Steve

 

[Roger]

I'm sure that proper inspection, asembly and maintenance will prolong their lives as Pete mention, but there still seems to be these random failures that worries me. Like the case you mention Peter. Metal fatigue is a scary thing. Difficult to detect since the cracks can be microscopic and not visible (and plenty of them) and once they reach a certain level the propagation process increase at an alarming rate. The new ones should not have any cracks at all neither visible nor hidden. Haven't checked how they are "uprated" but those new shafts should make me worry less. But still not sure. Will they completely eliminate the risk of shaft failure?? Given no racing just "normal driving" that is.

[Roger]

4 minutes ago, Steve P said:

I went for the Roto-CV shaft conversion for peace of mind

Hi Steve,

Daft, question: I thought CV conversion was only possible om Mk II cars with Rotoflex as standard (?) Can you please explain a bit more in detail how you got CV shafts on a Mk I car? Is there a kit available, or did you make something yourself? Thanks in advance.

Roger

[Steve P]

Hello Roger,

It`s fairly straight forward, i just accumulated all the MK 2 parts over time, and then all you need is the wishbone mounting brackets which you weld onto the chassis. They are available from Canleys and maybe other suppliers. Then it`s just a case of building it all up.

Only difference is the handbrake cables, it takes some careful setting up as the movement of the hub up and down affects the tension of the handbrake cable, but once setup properly it is fine,i would say better than before. I just didn`t want the 3 wheels on my wagon feeling again, or the 8 hour recovery from Cornwall.

I have another set ready to go on my Herald 1500, just done the Trunnionless conversion on that as well.(see Hub advice thread). Maybe i like tinkering.

Steve

[Roger]

57 minutes ago, Steve P said:

It`s fairly straight forward, i just accumulated all the MK 2 parts over time, and then all you need is the wishbone mounting brackets which you weld onto the chassis.

Thanks Steve, sounds tempting. It´s just the "accumulating parts" that is so difficult for me given my remote location (if those parts you mention are only available as used parts?). I have to look at the drawings in the user manual again and look into the possibility to convert to Mk II CV spec. Those drive shafts are ticking bombs for me, they make me nervous

[NonMember]

Having owned a couple of Mk1 Vitesses and a Rotoflex GT6 (I still have that and one of the VItesses) I really don't think I would change a Mk1 to Rotoflex, or even a CV setup. Sure it has the reputation of being way better for road holding but in my experience the difference isn't that marked if you drive sensibly and the Mk1 has much nicer manners in terms of ride.

2 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

This was late 60’s and the car only 3 years old?

Then it was almost certainly a defective-from-manufacture shaft. The ones on our cars now, assuming you haven't just bought a new one, are the ones that didn't have defects. As long as you don't swap them to the wrong side, the odds are they'll go on for many more years. A brand new shaft, manufactured who knows where, may even be a higher risk.

[Roger]

1 hour ago, NonMember said:

A brand new shaft, manufactured who knows where, may even be a higher risk

Good point NM. The poor quality of new parts was one of the main reasons I started this thread. So far no one that has replied has actually bought and used these uprated CDD shafts. I have been working with quality assurance and quality control in manufacturing industry for more than two decades and the poor quality of spare parts nowadays can drive me nuts. I would love to do a quality audit in the CDD factory. It would probably give them a long list with major non-conformances and I would really like to see evidence of their corrective and preventive actions before buying those shafts.

[johny]

6 hours ago, Roger said:

Do we know a bit more about this case as it looks like the front suspension has collapsed as well😲

[Colin Lindsay]

Looks like an internal roll cage. I suspect the car may have been driven in a spirited manner?

[johny]

and probably seriously modified?

[Pete Lewis]

talking of quality audits we had to let the french renault team audit dunstable build  and to assess standards between plants we had to venture into deepest france and audit theirs

they always had good results ( ie once target was met dont look any more )   untill we decended on the blainville factory  the results we gave a truck were so wildy off thier target they banned us from the plant 

lots of red faces and arm waving 

so yes audit the quality is right up my street 

Pete

[Roger]

1 hour ago, johny said:

Do we know a bit more about this case as it looks like the front suspension has collapsed as well

There was more detailed info in the fb comments. If you can find them... I know it was someone who shared a link on TSSC fb page

[Roger]

41 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I suspect the car may have been driven in a spirited manner?

The guy who drove the car actually left a comment in fb. There was no warning or indication whatsoever about what was about to happen (if I remember correct). It just snapped. I think he was doing about 55 mph, not sure.

[johny]

Could be a 2.5 with triple Webbers trying to put all that extra torque through a standard back end which of course unless you drive it very gently (whats the point?) is very likely to end in tears sooner or later. As Colin said, you dont put a roll cage in for pootling....

[Pete Lewis]

will it take the toqure .....std vitesse  today at a local show with std transmission but a stag engine shoe horned up front  its been fine for 14 years but driven with care not over spirited 

so they can last 

Pete

[Roger]

Maybe this can help you fb wizards to find the post with all the comments...

 

[iani]

I have CDD uprated shafts on both my TR6 & GT6, I tried two sets of the CV version on the TR but they weren't right, bearing noise on both sets, went for uprated standard and very happy with them.

 

[Roger]

3 minutes ago, iani said:

went for uprated standard and very happy with them.

Thanks for your feed-back iani. Just to make sure: with "uprated standard" you mean these shafts from CDD?

 

[iani]

Just now, Roger said:

Thanks for your feed-back iani. Just to make sure: with "uprated standard" you mean these shafts from CDD?

 

Yes, this is what I have fitted.

[Roger]

Thanks, good to know!

[SimonS]

Firstly, No-one was hurt in this incident, no prangs or bumps behind.

I'm sad to say I have first hand knowledge of this car,  I was driving along the 'slow' lane (never quite sure if its it's the inside or outside lane). I was cruising at about 65mph according to the GPS speedo that is fitted to the car. Happy as Larry and grinning like an idiot. I'd picked up the car that morning, and was driving back home, a long journey, but I had just bought a long distance rally car, so felt that I should get to know it - and I was loving it.  The car was converted to rally spec in 2008, and carries a FIVA passport having competed in 10-12 regularity rallies, a few club events and charity runs.  It wold have been driven hard.

As a new owner I was very aware of any bumps squeaks or rattles, I was listening for them. I was seriously impressed with this car, it was taught, went where I pointed it, stopped and went.  All with uncharacteristic and very untriumph like complete lack of bumps, squeaks, rattles, groans, thrums or wobbles.  In the previous 6 hours I had travelled just under 250 miles, stopping twice to check on the car and making sure that everything was OK. 

14:34 last Tuesday.  It went wrong, at first I thought it was a rear drivers side puncture (although the car was on brand new tyres), I was next to the hard should so thought, no drama, lift off and get onto the hard shoulder, stop and assess.  The extra drag on the rear drivers side pushed the front of the car to my right, and `I steered into it, and caught the slide.  I think I must have overused the legendary Vitesse turning circle, because the front suspension objected and collapsed.  Two wheels down, the front drivers side acts as a fulcrum and the car begins to spin anticlockwise across the carriageways.  At some point on this section of the trip the nearside rear tyre gave in, and I was down to one wheel going sideways across the carriageway.  No brakes because the rear drum was gone and no control with no tyres.  I kissed the central reservation with the nearside rear corner, that then span the car clockwise for a harder impact on the drivers side., coming to a stop in the middle/fast lanes of the motorway.

As yet I don't know what happened to the front suspension, I've not yet got the car back to take a look.  The rear suspension sheared at the threaded end of the drive shaft.

I have checked the receipts for this car, and this driveshaft was replaced in January 2020, with a new part, and it was installed professionally by a garage.