James H Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 Hi all, I don't know why my Vitesse 2 liter never overheats but all I can do is share whats installed and what I've done to the car, I'm in the south of France and it easily reaches mid 40s°C here in the summer and I will occasionally find myself stuck in stop/start traffic. I really, really struggle but the cars fine so if I can give something back on the forum maybe its this... So for whats its worth here are some pics of my fuel and cooling system setup, tried and tested in extreme heat sitting stationary in traffic, hot starting without issue and coping with very steep hills 4 up in the car ! Hope it helps someone : HUCO 133010 engine compartment fuel pump mounted instead in the boot for maximum suction by and below the tank http://www.gowerlee.dircon.co.uk/HUCO.html (ideally needs an emergency cutoff, a WIP). Even though two types are available I have learnt the hard way that electric pumps generally still prefer to push rather than pull and so despite manufacturer claims they do not self prime well. This is also why the extended distance to push the fuel the length of the car is a non issue. My testing was done with various pumps in various positions with the fuel outlet pipe disconnected at the carbs and submerged for close inspection of any air in the supply at all. This setup was the conclusion. Inline filter high up away from heat by brake servo (battery in boot with cutoff) Copper fuel line insulated from vibration and traced over heater/fan box away from engine heat Heat shields on carbs Drained and flushed the system fully including the "hidden" tap in the block Standard radiator moved within mm of valence, even a bit of the front grill removed from the inside to prevent fouling, its that tight ! Kenlowe fan, set to default trigger temp, mounted with bolt on adjustable support kit within mm of rad providing easy access to the belt and timing marks Calorstat 74°C summer engine thermostat Using pure -25°C rated coolant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 Thanks, it shows it is possible👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 1 Author Report Share Posted October 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, johny said: Thanks, it shows it is possible👍 Who'd've thought 👍 Pete Lewis has rightly pointed out that the 74° stat is out of Triumph spec but I believe ambient temp must be the key factor here, with climate change I'm guessing 6 months of 30°+ would not have been the european norm when Triumph made those listings ? I use these guys over here https://www.datch.fr/fr/mini-mg-triumph-calorstat-minimgamgbmgttr2tr3tr4tr5tr6spitfiresprigetminor-74a-p-3093.html and only 74°, 82° and 88° are offered for the Vitesse so 74° these days is considered correct for high climate, plus she reaches temp quickly and doesn't run rich.... Even so maybe an 82° standard spec stat would be best in the UK ! Edited October 1 by James H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 Although your cooling system is very good I cant believe that the engine is running cold with the temperatures you have in the summer. In fact I think whichever thermostat you use then it will always be fully open once up to temperature so the only difference each makes is the point at which coolant starts to circulate during warm up.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 1 Author Report Share Posted October 1 (edited) 41 minutes ago, johny said: Although your cooling system is very good I cant believe that the engine is running cold with the temperatures you have in the summer. In fact I think whichever thermostat you use then it will always be fully open once up to temperature so the only difference each makes is the point at which coolant starts to circulate during warm up.... Trust me I'm as shocked as you are, when I got the car I was sure it would be unusable during the summer heat but I was wrong, I've somehow managed to get the needle to sit dead in the middle under any condition. When I had the timing more advanced and occasionally pinging it would start to rise slightly if thrashing it uphill (still wouldn't overheat though) which at least proves the needle does go beyond the middle 😉 The fan is noisy so I'm well aware of when its on but even that is less often than I would expect, even with ambient 30s it often wont even come on when switching off. So yes you could be right about that... Edited October 1 by James H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 Your radiator seems to have a high density of cooling fins and in good condition which I now think makes a big difference to cooling effectiveness👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 1 Author Report Share Posted October 1 4 minutes ago, johny said: Your radiator seems to have a high density of cooling fins and in good condition which I now think makes a big difference to cooling effectiveness👍 I assumed it was stock, is it not ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 Its a standard radiator but has probably been recored (they only really last 10 years depending on use) and I wonder if this can vary. It certainly looks more dense than some Ive seen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 1 minute ago, johny said: Its a standard radiator but has probably been recored (they only really last 10 years depending on use) and I wonder if this can vary. It certainly looks more dense than some Ive seen... Mine was recored to three row as opposed to two, and I reckoned that was good enough for my Triumphs, but many reconditioners now offer a range of modern cores which they claim are more efficient again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 yes Ive looked into this Colin and think you have to be a bit careful because two deep tubes can be better than three or more less deep ones. What I mean is if the top and bottom tanks are say 60mm wide then two 1" deep tubes would give more flow and heat transfer surface than three 5/8" tubes even though the latter sounds more sexy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 1 Author Report Share Posted October 1 Thanks for the info, I've also got a stock Dolomite Sprint nearly ready for the road so it will be interesting to see how that copes in comparison, I might be in for a massive disappointment ! In any case sounds like you think rads are the key so thats where I'll be looking 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Truman Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 James H re Cut Out Switch (think it's Ford, cost under $20Aus) here's mine on my Mk2 Vitesse it's wired direct from a separate fuse in the aftermarket multi bladed fuse box's to a switch on the dash so I can spin the engine without flooding the engine then turn the pump on prime the carbs so a quick start with no death rattle! My Facet pump draws direct from the bottom of the fuel tank through the normal drain plug with right angle isolation valve screwed into the plug fitting, all fittings are brass as I had access to surplus process control equipment/piping during pump station upgrades (every 15 years) Pic's attached, ref fuse box's one Ignition and one battery supply with 6 fuse's each, bottom 3 in each box are the original fuse supply but now each is has it's own fuse, amazingly only minor work needed to the existing wiring to install! If a fuse blows a LED light illuminates, an added bonus! I like your fan arrangement some homework needed by me , what size is the fan please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trigolf Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 James, an interesting set of pics and useful for comparison of solutions to the cooling and 'overheating' problems that seem to plague six cylinder cars, particularly Vits, it would seem. Funnily enough, I had recently been pondering the idea of an elec pump mounted on the bulkhead and routing the pipe to the carbs along the back of the engine, following the cable loom, along the front of the heater box. Your rad is as far forward as mine was, when using the Kenlowe, but with the new rad the 'clearance' ( for fan belt swaps) gap around the crank pulley bolt was just a tiny bit smaller.. I'm going to see how the new uprated rad performs first. If I still get 'lumpy' idling in hot weather, I'll look at the fuel pump/pipe route again. Gav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 lumpy idles in hot conditions is its too rich lean the mixture a bit and poor air circulation under the bonnet wont help one reason why i still believe a engine driven fan is better in traffic/hot idle situations its running all the time . Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 With a Bastuck radiator and Spal 12 inch fan unless I release the rad fixings I can't fit a new fan belt. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 2 Author Report Share Posted October 2 6 hours ago, Peter Truman said: James H re Cut Out Switch (think it's Ford, cost under $20Aus) here's mine on my Mk2 Vitesse it's wired direct from a separate fuse in the aftermarket multi bladed fuse box's to a switch on the dash so I can spin the engine without flooding the engine then turn the pump on prime the carbs so a quick start with no death rattle! My Facet pump draws direct from the bottom of the fuel tank through the normal drain plug with right angle isolation valve screwed into the plug fitting, all fittings are brass as I had access to surplus process control equipment/piping during pump station upgrades (every 15 years) Pic's attached, ref fuse box's one Ignition and one battery supply with 6 fuse's each, bottom 3 in each box are the original fuse supply but now each is has it's own fuse, amazingly only minor work needed to the existing wiring to install! If a fuse blows a LED light illuminates, an added bonus! I like your fan arrangement some homework needed by me , what size is the fan please? Peter hi, thats a great help for something I've been putting off for ages, its alot to get my head round but I will pursue it, much appreciated ! The fan is 12" / 30cm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 2 Author Report Share Posted October 2 (edited) 6 hours ago, trigolf said: James, an interesting set of pics and useful for comparison of solutions to the cooling and 'overheating' problems that seem to plague six cylinder cars, particularly Vits, it would seem. Funnily enough, I had recently been pondering the idea of an elec pump mounted on the bulkhead and routing the pipe to the carbs along the back of the engine, following the cable loom, along the front of the heater box. Your rad is as far forward as mine was, when using the Kenlowe, but with the new rad the 'clearance' ( for fan belt swaps) gap around the crank pulley bolt was just a tiny bit smaller.. I'm going to see how the new uprated rad performs first. If I still get 'lumpy' idling in hot weather, I'll look at the fuel pump/pipe route again. Gav Gav hi, at a frustrating cost I tried four different pumps on the bulkhead, including the one I ended up using successfully in the boot, and all produced the air in the system shown in the video below. It has to be lower than the tank and it doesn't matter further along the line if the filter and route is above the carbs as they push like gems ! The setup I have produces no air at all and again the same pump in the engine compartment (or possibly even high up in the boot) does produce air Fuel issue.MP4 Edited October 2 by James H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 2 Author Report Share Posted October 2 (edited) If of interest here is a better shot of the rad fins, based on what Johny is getting at it may be the key here... Edited October 2 by James H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 2 Author Report Share Posted October 2 3 hours ago, Pete Lewis said: lumpy idles in hot conditions is its too rich lean the mixture a bit and poor air circulation under the bonnet wont help one reason why i still believe a engine driven fan is better in traffic/hot idle situations its running all the time . Pete Maybe I wont be disappointed with the Sprint then, fingers crossed ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trigolf Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 Your rad does not look standard to me. Here's mine next to Bastuck item... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 2 Author Report Share Posted October 2 (edited) 38 minutes ago, trigolf said: Your rad does not look standard to me. Here's mine next to Bastuck item... Interesting, so as Johny says mine has probably been recored and seemingly by a god ! Just been through the history/receipts I got with the car and unfortunately no mention of the rad ( found the receipt for the leaf spring though which was from Canley Classics in 2014 and is definitely standard spec but tragically also found receipts for T9 gearbox 5th gears, laygear nut and spigot bush, omg the previous owner was inside the box... ) Edited October 2 by James H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 2 Author Report Share Posted October 2 (edited) On 02/10/2024 at 12:58, James H said: The setup I have produces no air at all and again the same pump in the engine compartment (or possibly even high up in the boot) does produce air It just occurred to me you might be thinking " hang on whats he on about, there is obviously just a loose connection somewhere, he has completely lost the plot ! " so I should explain that I only resolved the issue by ultimately doing the test shown below : With an electric pump off the car and setup with just a simple inlet and outlet pipe both submerged in a jar of petrol, if the pump was held above the jar there would be air in the system but if it was held below the jar there wasn't. Problem solved but I still have no explanation why its the case and it was the same with all four pumps, I initially assumed it had to be air already in the system but the bubbles continue no matter how long its left in operation... So if you ever find yourself with nothing better to do, go ahead and try it for yourself or better still if you know the explanation please share ! Edited October 3 by James H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 If youre sure there was no air leak in suction pipe or pump casing then the only other explanation I can think of is the suction of the pump is vaporising the petrol which being quite volatile is possible, especially when warm, and theres not time for it to condense back in the discharge. It would be interesting to try it with water as any bubbles then must be down to air ingress.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James H Posted October 2 Author Report Share Posted October 2 (edited) 18 hours ago, johny said: If youre sure there was no air leak in suction pipe or pump casing then the only other explanation I can think of is the suction of the pump is vaporising the petrol which being quite volatile is possible, especially when warm, and theres not time for it to condense back in the discharge. It would be interesting to try it with water as any bubbles then must be down to air ingress.... I wondered that too... 1000% sure and it was the same with all pumps. Also they have automatic cutoffs for the output but being a small solenoid if the input resistance was too high they would easily burn out so maybe they have microscopic input valves to allow air in if fuel is restricted to preserve the flow ? Pretty unlikely, just a thought. The pumps were 2 different Hucos, a Facet and a generic of the same size, all bought new. I imagine anyone using something more upmarket and substantial might not face the same issue but since so many seem to go for these, the engine compartment on a Vitesse just doesn't have the low down space away from heat Having said all this I'm not actually sure if air in the supply is a real issue, I naturally assumed it was but I may be wrong ? Edited October 3 by James H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 You could be right because although solenoid operated diaphragm pumps if the suction was blocked the solenoid could stay continually energised and overheat. A small air inlet would prevent this👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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