D-Type OD. Running out of ideas

[ShaunW]

Hi,
I've tried all of the following but my *!$!@#! overdrive still isn't working. Any ideas would be very gratefully received before I concede defeat.....

So far I've:
1. Checked electrics & solenoid operation...All A1 with a nice crisp snap at the operating lever.
2. Lever adjustment, done, perect alignment every time it operates.
3. Cleaned tiny hole in operating valve.
4. Cleaned filter. (3 very small bits of black swarf  but nothing alarming)
5. Brimming full with fresh 30W non detergent oil (Millers)
6. Hit it with a lump hammer while driving and tried dropping the clutch etc

...still nothing

I could do a pressure test next but if it's good then the next thing would be to take it out and look inside....and if it's bad then the next thing would also be to take it out and look inside.

I've never taken one out before and a bit worried about shaft alignment etc, I also don't know if I can get it out without talking the gearbox out too. 
Fortunately the only interior I have is a driver's seat for testing so access is as good as it gets.

I'm reluctant to get a recon unit for what's probably a tuppeny part that needs replacing inside but unless I can summon up the courage/knowledge to pull out the OD then I might not have any choice but to get one, and have someone else fit it. That's a double blow to my ego and really REALLY goes against the grain.

So, any last ideas before I break out the cheque book and admit I'm not man enough to handle it?

btw I've been using these as a reference...D-Type OD Strip Down. D-Type OD Rebuild

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Hello Shaun.

John Roseby - my goodness you will not get much better than that chap. He is a Rootes & Ford man through and through; what he does not know about g/boxes and O/D's is not worth knowing. He is pretty much the default one-stop shop for all Rootes vehicle owners who do not want to do their own units. He is not expensive for the level of service he delivers, resides near Manchester and can completely overhaul your unit whilst you wait !! That's knowledge and expertise for you.

I know Tim Raymond very well and he is the chap who has posted the YouTube video's. Tim certainly will not accept second best, almost OCD when it comes to such proceedures.

Worth considering if you need to go down that route with John.

Regards.

Richard.

 

 

 

[ShaunW]

Thanks Richard.

It's great to see these guys documenting their knowledge for future generations.  That's a glowing recommendation indeed and one I'll note.

I'd much rather have it rebuilt than exchange it. I know it's a hard question to answer but have you any idea what he''d charge? Do you have a business contact email/number?
I'd love to take it and meet him but Mancester is a 280ml round trip so I'll probably have to add 2xCourier to my bill.

I'm keen to have a go at getting it out/in myself but I'm snookered if I get half way through and get stuck because I don't have mate to help or a trailer to get the car to a garage.  I'm starting to think I should have someone remove it, have John fix it, then have someone put it back in. Anyone who knows their stuff could probably have it out and put back in in a couple of hours, especially with the interior out of the way, so it shouldn't hurt my budget as much as my ego.

..shaun

[Guest]

Hello Shaun.

As Dirty Harry said "A man's got to know his limitations" !! So I would not beat yourself up too much if you need outside assistance.

G/box and O/D's are not for me either, far happier to surrender and let someone else do the work and actually know what they are doing.

You can contact John on the following:

Mobile 07979.857.765 // Landline 01928.732.951 // email: john@roseby31.fsnet.co.uk

Are you an attendee of your local TSSC group ?? If not I thoroughly recommend attending as there will be plenty of members who, I am sure, will be able to assist with removal & refit. Amazing what some free grub & tea can generate !! Regardless of that, it is worth attending in its own right - you may already be an attendee.

There is superb support via this Forum, so do not be concerned about getting stuck with technical issues - there is always an answer.

Having an extra pair of hands to remove & refit your G/box & O/D is very useful; although unless I have missed it you have not actually stated your car or type of O/D.

Hope the above is of assistance ??

Best wishes.

Richard.

 

[Guest]

Hello Shaun.

Just reread your original posting and I note it's a D type.

BUT more importantly, I see you are using 30W in your G/box and O/D. That is not correct, you should be using Hypoid EP90 (4GL) spec oil.

Your failure of the overdrive to work maybe / is down to the fact that 30W oil is not sufficiently constructed to provide the internal pressure for the O/D to engage or disengage. I've not read the Millers info yet, so I may be completely off track. How long have you been using this oil ??

I've just looked at Millers 30W - at best it's an oil designed for vintage & pre 1950's cars and at worst it's a running in oil, so you need to get rid of it, if that is what you are using.

If you continue, you are going to cause damage to both units with that oil.

Hopefully one of the Forum guru's will confirm the above view.

Regards.

Richard.

[Guest]

Shaun.

Further to my last, if my view is correct you will need to drain the 30W refill with EP90 take the car for a run and then drain the EP90 again and replace with fresh EP90. It is the only way to ensure you get rid of the incorrect oil. Hopefully no damage has occurred to the O/D as the units are very sensitive to incorrect and poor lubrication.

I would not bother to heat the 30W up by running the car, just dump it cold and let it drain overnight.

Hopefully the above can sort the issue and you will have a working O/D unit and no need to remove.

Good luck.

Richard.

[ShaunW]

That's all really interesting Richard.

I've had the car about 2 months and the OD has never worked. I've only done about 30 miles so far because I've been rebuilding all of the front end susp/brakes, half shafts & bearings and lots of other little bits and bobs.  I'd previously just topped up the box with EP90 and it didn't work. So I set that job aside until the running gear was all tip top. 

So, recently I set about doing the OD wiring/adjustment/filter/operating valve etc and after a lot of looking around I thought I'd made the right choice with the 30w. But I'm more than happy to stand corrected though. I've only done about 3 miles to try it so I'm pretty sure I haven't done any lasting damage. I managed to out-think myself on the oil and changed my mind several times, but to be fair I had seen several convincing articles that recommended it, albeit on US forums. I think I assumed that a weightier oil might help if the pump was a bit worn.

I may also have been a bit timid on my test drive, the country roads near me are a bit rough and I'm still being overly gentle with her. The racket when the tunnel is off and the prop shaft flying around near your 'seat' makes you take things gently. I probably barely got to 30 so that wouldn't have helped to develop much pressure. For all I know it hasn't worked for years.

I won't be able to get back on the  job untill next weekend and I'll certain try your advice before I do anything drastic. I'm pretty resigned to being off the road now through the winter but I do want to get the OD done (mechanicals...tick) before I set about the interior, a job I'm much more at home with.

I really ought to see about contacting the local TSSC group...and I really should join too. I was member for a short while in the early 80s when I had a couple of spits and a GT6. I wonder if I'm still on file?

The car is basically a 76 Spitfire that's somehow ended up with a GT6 bonnet & front hubs, a TR5 or 6 2500 engine, Strombergs, a 3-rail box, D-type OD.. She's a bit of a mongrel, but that's fine by me. It's been a challenge figuring out what she is actually because there's no numbers on the diff or the g/box.

It was reassuring to hear you're not really a gearbox guy either, you do sometimes get the impression in forums that you're the only one who's not making their own cogs and stripping engines down blind-folded. I know my limitations, but learning is fun too.  That said, it would be nice to just get this problem dealt with now.

Many thanks for your replies. Forums can be amazing resourses but that only happens when there's give and take, when things settle down a bit here I hope to contribute rather than just asking for advice.    I'll certainly be reporting any details of the eventual fix incase anyone else with the same issues stumbles upon this thread.

regards, shaun

 

[Clive]

Re the oil, it really is best to stick to the factory recommendation. 

The confusion is that laycock specified an  engine oil for the od, but the poor triumph gearbox NEEDS an EP oil. ep 90 is similar viscosity to the 30w engine oil at a guess, but will also protect the gearbox, and is the factory spec. I have been using comma ep 80/90 in my diffs and boxes for well over 20 years, as that what a local supplier stocked in 5L tubs but do make sure you get GL4 spec (not GL5)

If the box has not been used for a while, it may indeed need a bit of a thrash to get it to engage. Yes, openboxes are scary, so just put the tunnel in place with some gaffa tape or a couple of screws, take it for a drive and at speed in third (more revs) try engaging overdrive and keep driving, then flick it is and out every now and again. It may get it all moving. 

One other thought, you say the solenoid works ok etc, is this tested using the normal switch/inhibitor switches etc? or wired direct? the inhibitor switches can cause odd issues.

Now, on a side issue, the engine number prefix will reveal which engine, or is it a CP prefix? Also you say strombergs, but which ones? hopefully 175's though I have seen a few 2.5 conversions where the std GT6 strombergs have been bolted on....

[Pete Lewis]

You have checked the stroke , and lever settings , you have also checkeed the small hole in the spool valve , and looked at the filter thats a better start than many manage,

What you need is a short run with tunnel off and remove the cap nut on the top with the ball spring and spool underneath the cap/plug

Oil should pump out of this open port.  Its the place to add a pressure gauge , but if you get some squirts when the pump is working it shows the pump is attempting to pressurise.

Refitting alignment snags ,  on the car is not overly simple and can be a bit of a faf. With the unit parted you can see the two piston bars .

What you do to get the hubs inside to realign is use two levers to prise the piston bars to open against their spring pressure

Doesnt need loads of effort , when you open them the clucthes are freed to rotate and on she pops.

7Same when off the car,  no fiddilng down inside prodding around to get the splines aligned ,,   simpulze

If its never worked it may be firmly stuck and a good thrash may free it ,  or its been rebuilt and some plonker has left the pump cam woodruff key out of the cam drive and its not being turned by the mainshaft

If lutons nearer than manchester let me have alook with you 

Pete

Edited September 26, 2017 by Pete Lewis

[Guest]

Hello Shaun.

That's an interesting mix for your car and no doubt when all is done it will be a very enjoyable machine to drive.

Clive has made some compendious points and certainly knows his stuff. Swapping the oil for EP90 has to be the fist step and once that is in you can look at the additional points raised especially regarding the switching side. With that double checked it has to be a case of giving it an Italian tune up. It may be as simple as that. From what you have reported in your first section certainly gives the impression you have looked at the issue in a logical way, which of course is always useful !!

Regards.

Richard.

[Clive]

Ah, pete has made a good point re the cam. I had a box like that once. Previous owner had bought a box and overdrive separately and had never worked out why the od didn't work. I ended up swapping the box in teh car, and when it was taken apart it was obvious. Almost new recon units, and missing a simple little part....pressure test will be an indicator.

[ShaunW]

Brilliant stuff guys...

Clive:
All noted.  Everything's been tested in situ rather than on the bench.  hehe it's funny how a piece of gaffa tape gives you the mental reassurance that you're protected from shrapnel and just having the cover off somehow convinces you that it's all going to go bang for the first time in 40yrs. You mentioned running it in 3rd too (more revs) but isn' t the OD pump driven from the output shaft of the box(?) so I'd have thought that road speed would be the key rather than engine RPM.   Engine is CP77469HF,  and  I think....think the carbs are 150s but I forget to measure them when I did the filters which was silly (3581 on the tag). It also looks like the G/box number has been ground off...so I wonder if someone chaged the ratios at some point in it's life. I have some doco from a resto in 2002 that came with her and it lists a KE box and a KC engine....curiouser and curiouser.

Pete: Kind words about my efforts, you sometimes need that when you feel beaten. Especially when you keep reading that '99% of problems are this or that' and somehow you're still stuck.
You suggest trying it with the top plug removed?... mmm excuse my cynical tone but isn't there about 450psi of oil behind that plug? If I'm going to do that I think I'll have the roof off just in case ! The neighbours will think I've struck oil.  I think it's time to get a pressure gauge, would you know if it's a BSPP or a BSPT fitting? That's a very kind offer to have a look but I'm up near Cadwell (Horncastle actually) and everywhere is a long way from where we are.

classiclife: Again very encouraging words and after i'd looked up 'italian tune-up' it made me smile. It's a fair point though and I know I'm a bit timid with her. I haven't quite got the confidence yet to run a 50yr old engine up near the red line even though it sounds as sweet as a nut. After I've done a few more miles it'll be a different story I hope.  Maybe if I clench my butt cheeks together hard enough, grit my teeth and turn my head away slightly, she'll survive a good thrashing without exploding.

OK, really should be working now actually so I'll sign off for now. I'll definately report back when I've got a bit further, there's nothing worse than reading a thread where the OP vanishes and you don't get to hear what the fix was. The consensus seems to be that oil & pressure is the next thing to investigate.  Strangly the OD mounting plate only has 2 access holes and not one for the drain, but popping the filter cover off does the job even if it is a bit more agro and a lot messier. 

...shaun

 

 

.

[Pete Lewis]

If you are concerned about striking oil  just run her on a jack or similar safely, 

It wont find a gusher but some more gentle squirts...enough to prove the cam is operating the pump 

You only get pressure when the output is restricted, if its open ,  it is just messy

Now have vision of you in goggles and mutiple bin bags

Pete

 

[Guest]

Shaun.

Tag 3581 relates to a Stromberg 150 CD3 - which as Clive mentioned earlier is the incorrect size carb for your engine (2.5); they should be 175's

However that said, the tag may have been placed on there to give the carb some classic authenticity so you will need to measure it. Some Strom's do state their size on the dashpot but I have no doubt you will have seen that, should it be there.

Regards.

Richard.

 

[Clive]

Shaun, yes you are correct re revs, silly old me.

good news on the CP engine, bad news is those carbs will not be great on it. Ideally a set of PI stuff or better stick an EFi setup on. Alternatively a set of dolly sprint HS6 carbs that have the short dashpots and will fit under a GT6 bonnet, and open the existing manifold up to match. Holes in the carbs need slotting to bolt on too. And the sprint needles are a fair start point for a 2.5, though if yours still has the TR5 cam it will be (a) lumpy and (b) need a visit to the rollers to get the needle profile correct.

I actually like the 2.5 engine, ran one in my vitesse and great fun.

But back to the OD, a pressure check ofany kind, and then a damn good thrashing. And yes, the cardboard gearbox tunnel only protects you from the noise/smells......

 

[ShaunW]

Clive. A carb upgrade is going to have to be a job for the future. Maybe even next summer. Sadly I've no idea what work has been done on the engine. I ought to get inside and see if there's head work or what cam & bore etc but it's running well, I only have a driveway and single garage workshop, nights are drawing in and I've got a job list as long as your arm. It'll get done one day because I hate not knowing.  

 

Back to the topic... Does anyone know the spec of the threaded hole? Tapered or parallel? I was going to buy std hydraulic parts and a gauge. Much cheaper than a £60 'special' one from a car parts dealer. 

Pete, I might fit a piece of clear tubing snuggly in the hole first. I should still see the splashes but hopefully keep things clean. But I still might point the other end of it out of the car incase you're pulling my leg. Being new here i don't want to find out you're the class joker the hard way.

If I see evidence of pump working I'll get a gauge and test it both with the current oil and the new ep90 to gather some intel, although I do accept that the gearbox is happier on ep90 whatever my test reveals. 

I feel much happier now I've got a plan. Thanks guys.

[Pete Lewis]

You only need to turn the prop to operate the pump, turn wheels by hand if  you are unsure about drowning in liquid gold 

Really at idle in gear on a jack it will only give a low output,   , pop, a cloth over the port , 

You are just proving the pump is pumping  and check there is a ball and spring inside  on top of the valve plunger

And I deal with  basics not myths 

Pete

 

[dougbgt6]

Shaun, we do joke, but we are not malicious! You can believe Uncle Pete.

[Pete Lewis]

swarfega can block up your shower !!!

 

Pete

[thescrapman]

Don't worry about the oil, engine oil will be fine.

a local member has been using it in his gearboxes for as long as I can remember, it is his daily driver so does seriously mileages.

[ShaunW]

On 26/09/2017 at 6:39 PM, classiclife said:

Shaun.

Tag 3581 relates to a Stromberg 150 CD3 - which as Clive mentioned earlier is the incorrect size carb for your engine (2.5); they should be 175's

However that said, the tag may have been placed on there to give the carb some classic authenticity so you will need to measure it. Some Strom's do state their size on the dashpot but I have no doubt you will have seen that, should it be there.

Regards.

Richard.

 

I had a measure today and the carbs are 1.375" at the intake so I suppose they'd be classified as 150s. Not ideal but they'lll be quick enough for me, for now. Must say those holes do look pretty small when you think it's sucking in 83l of air per second at 4000rpm (i think). I once worked that half shaft roller bearings are doing about 20,000 rpm at 50mph...but i digress.

The OD - When I do a pressure test, do I leave the spindle/ball/shoe/spring in place or remove them?

To test the pressure I need to run the car at about 40mph, on stands. Apart from chains and a rip-cord on the coil lead, any tips? I suppose a foot poised on the clutch and not jiggling around seem like the best idea. The neighbours opposite have got a pretty long driveway so I should be ok if I'm suddenly launched at the horizon. I think I'll put the steering wheel back on, just in case.

[ShaunW]

Any idea what these are?

Some sort of plug inserted after the internals were fitted?. Plugged vents needed in the casting process?

(btw dontcha just hate it when people have been using the wrong sized spanner, I had to file that operating valve plug down to 11mm to get rid of the rounded corners so I could get a good grip on it. It was really tight. A good whack on the top with a BFH helped to shift it)

 

[Pete Lewis]

Ive told you what to do as an elementary test to prove the pump is being operated if you wish to  it the  the hard way

Then  let us know what you find

You only need the specified test pressures if its working ,  thats another stage in the plan

Pete

[Guest]

Hello Shaun.

1.375" is very narrow for 150's - I have measured a few spares in my garage and they are reading between 1.483" and 1.491"; are you sure you have read it correctly and not a typo error ??

If they are 1.375" that is going to reduce your delivery even more so; as such the quest for a set of 175's really should be on your shopping list at some stage. The undersized carbs will have a significant effect on the engines performance and of course will erase any other benefits you have tried to secure. 

I had a quick look on EBay and if nothing else it is a useful reference point sometimes. The carbs in the link I have attached are for a Triumph TR7 (tab 3654) and emission controlled - but the point of the link is to show just how much extra delivery your 2.5 engine will receive when you look at the size of the butterflies; very significant when you compare that to your current 150's. 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STROMBERG-175-CD-SEVX-CARBS-PAIR-N-O-S-/332367937637?epid=1146135794&hash=item4d62ac4065:g:cQUAAOSwiLdV-9hC

Regards.

Richard.

[thescrapman]

The. Engine could be a CP block with a 2000 crank in it.

can you measure the stroke?