1500 engine rebuild?

[Pete Lewis]

to me its top end  as its cam speed knocking so tappets , spring seats and such like 

we had a 4 cyl  with a hell of a racket from the chain area , caused by a PO had pop marked the sprocket face so whilst it was bolted tight it was not sitting face to face , who who think such a small dimple caused so much noise ,i expected the chain and tensioner to  be sawn to bits , all perfect 

quick rub with stone and .....silence.

think i would do a quick running test with an old feeler to see if the tappets quieten as a first idea.

pete

 

[dannyb]

I had this on my 1500 Spit.  Mine was re-bored +30. It was worse when hot. It turned out to be the pistons hitting the fire ring on the recessed head gasket.

I took the head off and you could se where it was flattened. I took all four pistons out and had them chamfered.

I remember there was a blog on I think MOSS or CANLEY'S  website, or could have been another where they had exactly the same problem after rebuilding a 1500 pit engine.

Danny

[mpbarrett]

thanks for all the suggestions.

Have taken the rocker cover off and its not so loud (I think the cast ali cover  is acting as a sound board).
Put my metal probe (long rod and ear...) on the rocker pedestal and you can hear a knocking, put it on the front end of the rock shaft and its very loud, quiet at the other end.

Putting the rod onto the top of the head and you cant hear any thing, which is good as the noise seems to be coming from the rocker gear and nothing from inside the engine, phew!

Tried putting a feeler gauge under the rockers and it didn't make any difference to the noise.

The plan is to take the rocker shaft off and split it and have a close look at the rocker bearings.

cheers

mike

[Pete Lewis]

make sure the pedestals are fully seated

have look at the springs and how they sit 

did they fit new valve guides  ?  are they protruding too far ??  and  making contact  

just ideas out the box 

Pete

[mpbarrett]

thanks Pete

yes pedestals sitting properly, not new valve guides but new valves which I lapped in until I got a nice even grey contact area.
Didn't change the guides as they did not seem worn (no play between the new valves and guides).
Springs seems to be sitting correctly. It has a new camshaft and followers.

Have taken the rocker shaft off and pulled it to bits. The oilway and feeds to the rockers seems to be clear.
There are visible  wear marks on the shaft (you can feel an edge with a finger) and free play between some of the rocker arms and the shaft but I am not sure whats acceptable/normal.

As there is some wear I am very tempted to replace the rocker shaft and arms.... I don't like throwing money at a problem without understanding whats going on, but it is the last moving part of the engine that has not been replaced!

Mike
 

[Pete Lewis]

is it getting some minimal lubrication up the shaft to the rockers ???

like the supply hole in the rear pedestal is not blocked or excess sealer on a head gasket has obstructed the oil way from block to head ?  if you crank it over there should be a interrupted light  squirt up the hole in the head 

so the whole thing is running dry ???

Pete

[mpbarrett]

9 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

is it getting some minimal lubrication up the shaft to the rockers ???

like the supply hole in the rear pedestal is not blocked or excess sealer on a head gasket has obstructed the oil way from block to head ?  if you crank it over there should be a interrupted light  squirt up the hole in the head 

so the whole thing is running dry ???

Pete

Yes seems to be plenty of oil, shaft and all holes free. No goo on head gasket.

mike

[Pete Lewis]

Good we can cross that one off the .....now what list

Pete

[mpbarrett]

Success! Now have a nice quiet engine.

Fitted new rockers and shaft (complete kit from James Paddock), filled the shaft with oil, torqued it up, reset the valve clearances and started her up.

Lovely sweet noise no more rattles, valve clearances need a small tweak but all is good!

I am surprised that the old shaft caused some much noise, it was quiet before I rebuilt the engine. But its got a new Newman camshaft (the old one had signs of wear on the lobs and followers) so maybe this is producing more lift and putting more stress on the rockers, and with the wear on the shaft, allowed them to move around. The camshaft has different valve clearance settings as well. Will see if I can measure the wear on the shaft and rockers just out of curiosity.

Probing the engine with the rocker cover off and a metal rod was very useful as it meant I could localize the sound. One to remember for the future.

Just want to double check the ignition  and valve timing and then put bonnet back on and take her out for a drive, that's tomorrows job.
If all goes well, and I get a few miles on her, I plan to take her to the TR register meeting in Lincoln on Sunday.

Thanks for all the comments.

Mike

[yorkshire_spam]

Result!

[Nick Jones]

Well done Mike. Think that, as you say, the problem may have been due to the different cam making the rocker gear work outside the range of movement it had become accustomed to.

I was half- expecting trouble when I reused my old rockers on new engine with very different cam, but I was luckier than you it seems.

Nick

[Pete Lewis]

Thats a good result 

Pete

[Anglefire]

When you say it’s quiet Mike, how quiet is it? I ask because I have the Ph1 Newman’s cam and I get a bit of tappet noise despite being bang on the money as far as I can tell on the clearances - which as you know are bigger than standard?

[mpbarrett]

12 hours ago, Anglefire said:

When you say it’s quiet Mike, how quiet is it? I ask because I have the Ph1 Newman’s cam and I get a bit of tappet noise despite being bang on the money as far as I can tell on the clearances - which as you know are bigger than standard?

yes a bit of tappet noise but different from the clattering noise with the old shaft.

I am using the Newman PH1 cam, I went for low speed torque rather than revs. I wasn't sure if the gaps numbers were for hot or cold at the moment I have set them cold. I expect they will need adjusting as everything settles down.

Out of interest I tried to measure the wear on the old shaft it varies from 1.5 to 2.5 thou but is very uneven wear. I cant measure the bore in the rockers but know they are worn as well.

mike

[mpbarrett]

Finally got the car out of the garage and took her out for a run today, did about 30 miles and all good. No leaks, seems to go very well, although I haven't taken her over 3500RPM,  and overall very pleased with the engine and gearbox. Its lovely having synchromesh back on 2nd gear! Still double declutching when changing down...
She running a bit warm but I guess that because everything is a bit tight. 

BTW How many miles should I do before re torqueing the head?

cheers

mike

[Anglefire]

Re-torquing the head - I don't know for sure, but would have thought a couple or three heat cycles - I did mine after about 30-40 miles - but only because I took the rockers off to check something.

[Pete Lewis]

Retorque always back the nut off 1/2 a turn  first ,  do one at a time in  manual sequence 

And dont forget to recheck the clearances after a re torque, if the head stightens a little it closes the tappets up

Pete

[NonMember]

On the push-rod engines I've never really found it necessary. The 1850 definitely needed the head re-torqueing after a hundred miles or so (I think the book suggests longer but it was weeping).

[Pete Lewis]

i donr see any retorque requirements in the WSM  its supposedly fit and forget  but triumph were good at leaving sublte clues out of the wsm and hiding it in handbooks and service schedules   instead     really useful

i think its a worthwhile exercise  on  copper and composite gaskets ,  not so sure about the steel shim on the 1600  over pulling might  over stress. the sealing  lips 

Pete

[Nick Jones]

I always do it.  Usually after not that many miles as I think it's the heat cycling that leads to whatever settlement occurs. Say couple of hundred miles 3/4 heat cycles.

After the first couple of hundred miles you can start giving it a bit of stick. Not prolonged and severe, but plenty of throttle followed by some over-run, which helps bed the rings and progressively bring the revs up.  Not sure th ph1 does much over 5k anyway.

Pleased to hear it's working well. Have you re-mapped at all?

Nick

[Anglefire]

Actually the PH1 powerband is 1500-6000. More than enough for the 1500 spit in my view. 

http://www.newman-cams.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/newman-cams_triumph.pdf

Mine is timed slightly out - which lowers the band a touch. And it does pull well from 1000rpm. 

[mpbarrett]

2 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

I always do it.  Usually after not that many miles as I think it's the heat cycling that leads to whatever settlement occurs. Say couple of hundred miles 3/4 heat cycles.

After the first couple of hundred miles you can start giving it a bit of stick. Not prolonged and severe, but plenty of throttle followed by some over-run, which helps bed the rings and progressively bring the revs up.  Not sure th ph1 does much over 5k anyway.

Pleased to hear it's working well. Have you re-mapped at all?

Nick

Nick

fiddled with the maps to improve the tick over. Also realised that I had the wrong calibration for the AFR signal so have fixed that (don't understand how I had got it wrong, thought I had checked it...). I think it needs some fine tuning it once I have got some miles on the new engine, its slightly rich at the moment. It works very well and is so much better than when it was on carbs but its not perfect yet but I am resisting doing too much fiddling at the moment.
Also the throttle cable is making the throttle stick so the tickover is either 900 or 1400 rpm! Just need to work out how I had it routed before doing the work on the engine, I hope I took a picture before taking all the injection stuff off.

Been out today down the A14 (very hot and busy) to a craft fair at a NT house (about 60 mile round trip), car pulls very well, even being gentle with it seems to have much more power than before and is much smoother with very good pickup from 1500 rpm onwards. For what I want to use the car for I think the PH1 cam was the right choice.
Good bores, working piston rings and a decent cam do make a difference.....

Temp gauge has gone mad reading almost to the red but the actual engine temp is fine and its not overheating even sitting in the drive ticking over, don't know why it has changed? Fuel gauge is ok so the regulator should be ok. Temperature on the Megasquirt is reading correct but is from a  different sensor so maybe the new sensor feeding the gauge has gone mad?

The gearbox has been rebuilt with a set of GT6 gears, so much closer gear set than the original herald but does make the first gear a bit high geared.
Lovely having working synchromesh again and a very crisp OD.

So overall so far really pleased with it, a few things to fix but nothing serious yet!

I am thinking about going up to Lincoln for the TR Triumph day tomorrow, but its a bit of a slog up the A1 to get there from Cambridge and today its been almost too hot for a convertible... wonder if you can fit A/C to a Herald

Mike

 

 

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

if you have a non stabilised sender   (121997)  when fitted to stabilised gauges    ( sender GTR108)  it will read Hot   

Pete