oil feed

[Guppy916]

Peter are you in Melbourne

[Guppy916]

Nick you asked what cam was fitted before, the old is marked up as Stanpart 8831199 cast up front half way down the cam on the little cast square 5/2 at the rear 399,

and up near the front MG25228

now my engine number is MG 86361 EBW,

all I know is that its from a 2.5 PI  Auto saloon MK2 1969-74 132BHP

Borg Warner Type 35 or 65

Nick when used Chris Witor's Springs did you also fit the spring collars part number 149717

or should I just use Newman's springs Part number DNS1040S , 12 - Single Springs 160 LBS PH1 to PH2 Cams

 

 

[Nick Jones]

Don't recognise the numbers on the cam - not one of the usual cam part numbers.  Also, original or re-profiled?

Sorry, don't remember about the spring spacers - was 2008 I did this - have receipt for the springs but spacers would have been re-used.  I'm sure the Newmans springs will be fine.  The springs don't need to be  very strong unless planning big revs - and this is a 2.5!

Nick

PS re the springs coil binding, I think it's a question of by how much.  If there was a big mis-match then a bent pushrod or broken rocker would be the likely outcome, guaranteeing a quick discovery.  However, I reckon in marginal cases (probably more common) you just end up overloading every thing slightly until the first thing gives.  Follower failures are quite common and could also be the result of excessive spring pressures or coil binding.

[Guppy916]

Ok Nick, you'd use the Newman springs thats good enough for me, I just wasn't sure if the 160LBS was too much pressure on the cam, thanks bud

[rogerguzzi]

1 hour ago, Guppy916 said:

Ok Nick, you'd use the Newman springs thats good enough for me, I just wasn't sure if the 160LBS was too much pressure on the cam, thanks bud

Hello Guppy919  (Ducati 916?)

                        This what I decided after a lot of advise from the Sideways Forum I have gone for a Newman PH2 cam (Spitfire 1500) and the steel followers.

I have bought a set of valve springs off Chris Witor the TR5 type as I could not find any Jaguar springs anywhere.

https://www.chriswitor.com/proddetail.php?prod=CW2906

I thought I would try and compare the spring rates and this is what I found

New red (county springs about 34lbs @ 35mm and 110lbs @ 0.405" compression with 0.150" spacer(105lbs without)

White Jaguar  40lbs @ 35mm and 120lbs @ 0.405" compression'

The Newman single springs are rated @ 160lbs ??? So I think over kill for a 1500!

So what is all your opinions? (I promise not to get upset or cry) still time to change my mind as the man is busy and job will not be done until January

This is how I did it a bit crude but it was for comparison more than accuracy!

All tests with out bottom Triumph collar, I will make the 0.150" spacers in steel I do not fancy aluminium and will make them a good fit inside the outer spring to stop it moving around!

 

Roger

[JohnD]

Roger,

I presume you measured the stiffnesses with individual springs?  As in the lower photos?

To find the stiffness of springs in series add their reciprocals, and then take the reciprocal of the result:   1/x = 1/y + 1/z  so that gives you a lower value than either.   Whereas, in parallel, as in double springs as fitted, you add the stifnesses.

You have a lovely press to do it in!   Comparison, especially of the binding compression, can be done in a vice.

John

[Guppy916]

Roger I'm running a 2.5 lump with a Newmans PH2 Fast Road Cam, If you think the 160 LBS springs are an over kill in a 1500 what about in the 2.5 lump, the last thing I don't want to do is ruin another cam

Nick whats your view on the jag springs

[rogerguzzi]

1 hour ago, Guppy916 said:

Roger I'm running a 2.5 lump with a Newmans PH2 Fast Road Cam, If you think the 160 LBS springs are an over kill in a 1500 what about in the 2.5 lump, the last thing I don't want to do is ruin another cam

Nick whats your view on the jag springs

Hello Guppy916

                              I have run the Jaguar single springs for 30,000 miles but you can not get them now.

So I have gone with Chris Witor red ones as the others are using these and rev their engines more than I do!

Plus all the reading I have done seems to suggest that stronger is not need until past 6,500 RPM (Spitty would blown up by then!)

Roger

ps The TR6 used the same springs as Spitfire on some engines!

 

[rogerguzzi]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Roger,

I presume you measured the stiffnesses with individual springs?  As in the lower photos?

To find the stiffness of springs in series add their reciprocals, and then take the reciprocal of the result:   1/x = 1/y + 1/z  so that gives you a lower value than either.   Whereas, in parallel, as in double springs as fitted, you add the stifnesses.

You have a lovely press to do it in!   Comparison, especially of the binding compression, can be done in a vice.

John

Hello John

                   Yes the 2 sets were just to show the difference!

Roger

[Pete Lewis]

We had a  cracking small press with a load cell and optical  linear travel  which would plot a simple graph , great for this sort of job, I guess it went in the skip when they closed us down.  

If only , theres a limit on what you can rescue and I got seconded to france  to do time !!   Even our starter and alternator test machine  Got skipped,    but would be a bit big to aquire and find a home 

Well the suns out

Pete

[Guppy916]

Roger, no sadly just a 748, I have a friend that has a 916 Foggy rep (number 32) it just sits in his office, never moves off it's paddock stand.

well reading all your views I shall be ordering a set of CW2906 Springs, can I use my old spacers ?

 Nick just checked all push rods no damaged ones,

I have measured the oil pump and found that all the pump tolerances are 'at' or just over the maximum allowed measurements in the Haynes book,

and this was a new pump,

[Nick Jones]

From Roger's data I'd be using the the Witor ones (which are the ones I have fitted as I said before).   While you are ordering from Chris you might want to order one of his "checked" oil pumps too.  You take pot luck with the new ones.  When I built the Vitesse engine up I had the choice of three.  Two new and one used.  The used one was better in every way, so I used it.

The Jag springs were very popular for a while (I think GT started that one) as cheap, excellent quality and about the right rate.

More on the subject here

http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/6109-ebc4871-springs/&tab=comments#comment-80984

I think there was an earlier thread that kicked it all off too which I've been too lazy to look for.

Nick

[Guppy916]

wow that was some bed time reading Nick thanks, have you any views on the thrust washer mods

http://www.customthrustwashers.com/blues_3_004.htm

yes iv'e been talking to Chris about the springs, I was thinking could I use my old spacers ?

I didn't realise his oil pumps were much better, I have already emailed him to include one in my order

28 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

I think there was an earlier thread that kicked it all off too which I've been too lazy to look for.

I suspect that might have been on the old CT forum so no longer available to view 

[rogerguzzi]

14 minutes ago, Guppy916 said:

wow that was some bed time reading Nick thanks, have you any views on the thrust washer mods

Hello Guppy

                      I have made a set for Spitty and machined the main bearing cap so it is full circle(Stupid engineer!) still it will see me out!(In our yeti I have put my foot on the clutch to start the engine!) why put a switch so you can not start it in gear?

I have some half made ones and a big ish lump of the right sort of bronze

if you are not in a rush I will make you some

Roger

[Guppy916]

The switch is so my stupid ( no he's not that clever ) son doesn't go leaping down the road on kangaroo juice  !

[Nick Jones]

10 hours ago, Guppy916 said:

have you any views on the thrust washer mods

http://www.customthrustwashers.com/blues_3_004.htm

They seem to be excellent.  I have them in the Vitesse engine.  Scott is good to deal with - only bugbear is the price of shipping - groupbuy makes lots of sense!  IMO only the rear facing one needs to be solid bronze as it's the one that takes the thump

 

10 hours ago, Guppy916 said:

I suspect that might have been on the old CT forum so no longer available to view 

No, on Sideways.  Possibly this one.

http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/434-valve-springs/&tab=comments#comment-5067

Most of the serious tech stuff is on Sideways (all findable though pics may be gone on the earlier stuff) or VERY early CT (probably no longer findable)

Nick

[Guppy916]

Nick., did you have a full washer or just the half circle type , did you have to have the rear main cap machined ,  I liked the idea of the full bearing , but it,s not easy to replace when warn ,  I really appreciate all your help 

[Nick Jones]

Nope, standard half circle type.  My block was perfect and the crank NOS.  I should check the end float again I suppose (~10k miles on the engine now).

There are different types of the "standard" washers available and you can't always predict what you'll get.  I've always tended to buy a selection of thicknesses so I can mix and match and what often happens is that some of the selection will be plain silvery grey and others will have a coppery colour.  The coppery coloured ones are made by AE I think and seem to be very much better than the others.  It doesn't really matter which type the washer on the front side of the bearing is as they see very little force but you should always try to get the coppery coloured one on the back side.  When mixing and matching thicknesses to get the float you want, it doesn't matter which size goes which side. As yours seem to to have worn excessively in a very short time, you also need to determine why this happened.  Was your crank nitrided/tuftrided?  Some of these surface hardening processes leave a slightly roughened surface so the crank has to be polished afterwards - this includes the thrust faces, which might get forgotten!

Nick

[Guppy916]

Thanks Nick, I can't do anything until I get the block back from the machine shop

I think iv'e found the reason for the end float looking at one of the thrust washers I must have put it in back to front,

 

[Nick Jones]

 

2 hours ago, Guppy916 said:

think iv'e found the reason for the end float looking at one of the thrust washers I must have put it in back to front,

All too easy to do.  I've never actually done it to point of the running the engine but early in my engine building career, standing next  to a 1500 I'd just built up, a good friend casually joked that I'd probably put them in backwards.  I swore I hadn't...... but it niggled me..... so much so that after he'd gone I actually took the sump back off to check....... and damn me, so I had!  So now I'm absolutely paranoid about it and check many times!

I actually found one in backwards in a 2500 I dismantled - had been like that a while and had lasted because it was the front one, with the rear one being correct.  That engine also had the some of it's main bearing caps from another engine - shimmed with bits of coke can - so it would actually turn presumably!  It was in my PI briefly but made scary noises when hot.  Went in the bin!

Nick

[Guppy916]

It's good to know we all make easy mistakes, After reading all these replies I'm getting paranoid about the springs, thrust bearings, on about simple mistakes many many years ago a friend who lives in Wales drove up to my house for a night out with her old friends, and while she was having a bath, sorting hair and make up then something to eat, because the wife won't let her out drinking on an empty stomach, I popped the bonnet ripped the duff clutch out and was just shutting the bonnet when she appeared ready to go out, and as I stepped back I tripped over something looked down to see the new clutch plate, at least the old minis were easy to work on, the motto ever since never rush a job no matter how easy it may be

[Peter Truman]

I did the same with a college friends clutch plate in a MG Midget in the mid 60's. We had to meet our then girl friends for lunch & after putting the engine back, doing everything up I looked over to the bench and behold the new clutch plate, it took us 2hrs to strip and replace we were an hour late for lunch at the Kings Head I think in Great Ayton, just in time for desert, coffee & pay the bill!

I'm just rebuilding a Spit 1500 engine for my daughters Mk2, as a spare, now Nick has me questioning "have I put the thrust washers in right", I checked and checked but did I do it right!! She wants a Mk3 1300 engine, as an upgrade for the original 1147, but there RARE over here now.

Yes Guppy I'm in Melbourne.

Peter T 

[dave.vitesse]

Remember the 2.5 is a long stroke four bearing engine and doesn't take to kindly to being reved at or above 6000 RPM. Most set a limit at 5500 rpm. Therefore, valve bounce can be a bit academic. The TR5 valve spring ratings are a good indicator for the spec that is required.

Dave

[Guppy916]

Dave I don't think that it will be reved much above 5k, if even that high, 

Peter did you ever make the alternator bracket that I sent you the drawings for way back in December 2015,

here's a link to jog your memories http://www.kingsheadinn.co.uk

[Nick Jones]

2 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

I'm just rebuilding a Spit 1500 engine for my daughters Mk2, as a spare, now Nick has me questioning "have I put the thrust washers in right", I checked and checked but did I do it right!! She wants a Mk3 1300 engine, as an upgrade for the original 1147, but there RARE over here now.

Sorry....... welcome to my world!  Herald 13/60 GE engine makes a perfectly reasonable start point for a snorty 1300 - maybe no easier to find though. I have the basics of a GE bottom end here (needs full rebuild) but not much use to you in Melbourne!

In fact, for everyday drive-ability a 1500 is probably the best - provided the car is geared right.  Needs at least a 3.89 diff + overdrive, 3.63 diff better.

Nick