The embarrassing Herald restoration thread - now the fiddly bits

[AlanT]

Keep at it Colin! Gaps are, perhaps, the hardest part of resto. Think how easy cars 2 and 3 will seem with all your knowledge! 

[PeteH]

When I was doing mine, (still at it) I theorised that the Curve of the tubular support had compressed?. Never measured the distance, but that would make getting the front of bonnet line High enough?. People having sat on the bannet for example could set it down?.

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

9 minutes ago, PeteH said:

When I was doing mine, (still at it) I theorised that the Curve of the tubular support had compressed?. Never measured the distance, but that would make getting the front of bonnet line High enough?. People having sat on the bannet for example could set it down?.

Pete

You're along my line of thinking, Pete; I've just measured one against the fitted version and I think - as approximately as I could measure - that there's an inch of difference in the curve. That translates to a lot of door gap. The bonnet will be off the car by the weekend and probably have the tube replaced, which means working on the grotty rusty version I have on the floor to get it pristine white... but it's all I can think of. 

Sad thing is, looking at the photos I took when the car arrived with me, the gaps were great... but the bonnet came off to have the front panel replaced and has not fitted the same way again since.

 

 

 

[PeteH]

Colin,

I was thinking along the lines of using a Jack or similar, between the end of the Tube(s) and the most forward support bracket, to see if the "gap" could be modified, If however you have it removed it may be possible to achieve the same with a length of Scaffold tube or similar?.

Do you know what distance you have (roughly)?. I`ll measure the 13/60 later this a.m. and post up.

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, PeteH said:

Colin,

I was thinking along the lines of using a Jack or similar, between the end of the Tube(s) and the most forward support bracket, to see if the "gap" could be modified, If however you have it removed it may be possible to achieve the same with a length of Scaffold tube or similar?.

Do you know what distance you have (roughly)?. I`ll measure the 13/60 later this a.m. and post up.

Pete

It's amazingly difficult to measure!! Trying to find a datum point on the curved tube leads to all sorts of dimensions.

If the tube could be compressed backwards, behind the front chassis tube, it can then be moved upwards and backwards behind the tube to raise and straighten the door gaps. I've got two spare tubes, both ex-1200s (should be the same) so will try (again) later today. Everytime the doors open there's a bang and the wings flex, with more paint flying off the edges...

But photos / measurements will be very welcome. 

[Wagger]

The overiders on the Herald 13/60 are similar to Vitesse ones. The earlier Heralds had overiders mounted higher up. There may be chassis differences causing you this headache.

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Wagger said:

The overiders on the Herald 13/60 are similar to Vitesse ones. The earlier Heralds had overiders mounted higher up. There may be chassis differences causing you this headache.

Chassis should be the same bar the overrider brackets, and this is definitely 13/60. The bonnet wouldn't open at all with the 1200 versions.

I need to check the profile of the chassis tube curves at the front and see if they will bend backwards by an inch at most. If so this will allow upwards movement to align the gaps. I had thought perhaps the bonnet had moved round on the mounting plates but given the (almost) fixed point on the top panel which screws through using two bolts hidden by the centre strip, it cannot move any great amount. I just don't get how it fitted before the bodywork - which was only the front grill area so nowhere near the mounting points for the tube - but not since.

[Wagger]

Mine is a mk1 2L Vitesse and the bonnet tube mount is where yours is on the photo. However, the mount within the over-rider appears about an inch higher than yours. I can't photograph it as the over-riders are covering it. With a finger inside the over-rider the bolt holes are way above the tube.

Maybe somebody with a 13/60 can take a picture of theirs. If I try to remove my over-riders the captive nuts will all fall out, Again!! They were seized and spread the metalwork. Took a whole day to re-mount them. I have had to settle for 3/8 to 7/16 in gaps all around the door and bulkhead and the bonnet still scrapes the central bumper. Luckily, the rest of the car is equally tatty.

[Jeffds1360]

Not really followed this but saw the request so here goes. Lighting poor only got a dangle single bulb:)

If you need more I'll get out in the sun tomorrow 

[PeteH]

I`ll, see if I can get some pic`s Sunday. At this time the car is surrounded by stuff I threw out of the Motorhome locker, to get at the electrics!, without breaking my back in the process.

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Wagger said:

Mine is a mk1 2L Vitesse and the bonnet tube mount is where yours is on the photo. However, the mount within the over-rider appears about an inch higher than yours.

I think the holes in the front overrider brackets are okay, but I've been doing a bit of experimenting with the support tubes. I have four, three on bonnets and one spare, so the easiest and simplest way to compare them is visually. This is what I managed earlier:

The spare 1200 bonnet is to the left, and the fitted Vitesse / Herald 13/60 tube to the right. See how the curve of the white tube is more pronounced than the one in primer? Translate that more gradual curve on the primered version to the angle required for fitting and rearward movement and the hole for the brackets will be almost an inch lower and further forward, allowing for more upward movement of the front of the bonnet around the chassis cross tube. It's probably more apparent in this view:

It's entirely possible the bonnet tube has been damaged in the past - although with both sides of the tube the same it's difficult to work out exactly how - so I think a replacement is on the cards. I spent this morning at a TSSC Easter Egg Hunt, arrived in the rain, had terrible coffee, hid a large egg and didn't find any in return, so came home mid-afternoon and thanks to an almost empty greenhouse started work on a replacement bonnet tube.

                                                                                           

Sadly the reason the greenhouse is empty is because I moved my plants outside on Wednesday, and there was a frost on Thursday which killed all the dahlias. Still, one man's loss is a Garden Centre's gain so I'll restock later but only when the Herald work is done. 

This will effectively give me two tubes to play with, the already primed version sitting on the 1200 bonnet (but not attached) and this version. I think there's actually another spare tube sitting round behind the garage on a 948 bonnet so surely one of them will have the required profile and I can move on from the bonnet gaps to something more productive.

Incidentally the one on my 1200 estate bonnet has very strange plates attached... wonder why?

                                                                                             

 

[PeteH]

10 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Incidentally the one on my 1200 estate bonnet has very strange plates attached... wonder why?

Likely, someone in theIr wisdom thought the manner in which the ends where formed was lacking strength? and chose to stiffen the attachment point?. Probably a "modification" in early existance, and not factory?. In fact I would not be surprised, should you remove said item, that you may not find traces of cracking in the original?.

Pete

 

[Wagger]

14 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I think the holes in the front overrider brackets are okay, but I've been doing a bit of experimenting with the support tubes. I have four, three on bonnets and one spare, so the easiest and simplest way to compare them is visually. This is what I managed earlier:

The spare 1200 bonnet is to the left, and the fitted Vitesse / Herald 13/60 tube to the right. See how the curve of the white tube is more pronounced than the one in primer? Translate that more gradual curve on the primered version to the angle required for fitting and rearward movement and the hole for the brackets will be almost an inch lower and further forward, allowing for more upward movement of the front of the bonnet around the chassis cross tube. It's probably more apparent in this view:

It's entirely possible the bonnet tube has been damaged in the past - although with both sides of the tube the same it's difficult to work out exactly how - so I think a replacement is on the cards. I spent this morning at a TSSC Easter Egg Hunt, arrived in the rain, had terrible coffee, hid a large egg and didn't find any in return, so came home mid-afternoon and thanks to an almost empty greenhouse started work on a replacement bonnet tube.

                                                                                           

Sadly the reason the greenhouse is empty is because I moved my plants outside on Wednesday, and there was a frost on Thursday which killed all the dahlias. Still, one man's loss is a Garden Centre's gain so I'll restock later but only when the Herald work is done. 

This will effectively give me two tubes to play with, the already primed version sitting on the 1200 bonnet (but not attached) and this version. I think there's actually another spare tube sitting round behind the garage on a 948 bonnet so surely one of them will have the required profile and I can move on from the bonnet gaps to something more productive.

Incidentally the one on my 1200 estate bonnet has very strange plates attached... wonder why?

                                                                                             

 

Probably stating the 'Bleeding obvious' so apologies, but why not fit the tubes in place without the bonnet and compare the measurements. You may find at least 1/2in differences.

I was gonna remove mine to attend to the worn pivots, but I won't risk it now that I have seen your problems as mine has 'Fallen into place' with age and bodged adjustments by previous owners.

[PeteH]

Not sure how much "help" this may be but, This is what I found:-

I measured the distance between the pivot bolt and the lowest bolt on the support bracket, as +- 7".

At this the bonnet, lines and gaps look as:-

The Connecting Brackets are original, (size) set on the maximum height possible.

Pete.

 

[NonMember]

On 30/04/2022 at 20:26, Colin Lindsay said:

Incidentally the one on my 1200 estate bonnet has very strange plates attached... wonder why?

My Vitesse also has some plates on there. They get in the way of adjusting it properly so I may have a go at removing or reducing them.

[Colin Lindsay]

I thought it was about time I added something to this thread otherwise it seems like I've given up, although DIY and house maintenance have somewhat taken over recently. I suppose sanding and restaining skirting boards is good practice for dashboards later in the year.

In the meantime work on the 13/60 continues. I've removed the bonnet, using the Lindsay one-man patent method of removal.

                                

Tie a rope to the support tube, haul it vertical then undo the brackets. If the chain is sufficiently taut it doesn't even move and the car can then be wheeled away. I removed the old support tube which seems to have had damage to the passenger side, so may be out of alignment and thereby causing the fitting difficulties.

                                 

There are numerous kinks and dents so the replacement can only be an improvement. It's from a 1200 bonnet so there are additional brackets but no-one will see once the bonnet is closed.

I took the opportunity when the bonnet was off to clean up the underside. The wheelarches, as with most of the car, were coated in underseal and it's the dirtiest stinking-est job to remove using thinners. Not forgetting the splitting sore head it gives me, too. Both sides stripped back to metal and given a coat of primer followed by stonechip, they have just received their first coat of white topcoat and are a major improvement.

                                                                                                      

                                                          

Even the brackets have been sandblasted and repainted. I found one slight problem with the bonnet adjusting rods - the passenger side one was cross-threaded and very stiff to move, and my replacement was also very difficult to move; on inspection the threads there too were very flat and distorted. I don't have the correct taps for those reverse threads so ended up using a third spare, which was extensively checked and tested before being resprayed.

                                         

That should make adjustment a doddle later on. With the paint drying I turned to the other problem of the accelerator cable bracket at the carburettor. This was moving about quite alarmingly, and liable to give problems when driving. I couldn't work out what was wrong until I had a quick Internet search and found out that mine was missing an additional spacer which also acts as a guide for the correct angle. This was why the two manifolds would not draw tight on the connecting stud.

                                                                                        

In order to fit one of those I'd have to take both manifolds off again, which wasn't a pleasing option. I machined up a c-shaped shim instead, loosened the connection, hammered it into place and retightened. Job done. The lever now sits at one angle and will definitely not move.

                                                                                        

In celebration I fitted the front passenger seat, which was a real boost. Carpets and trim are all now finished on that side, at least for the present. Some small jobs to be done at leisure and of course come next winter there's a bit of spraying and some dashboard work required, but for now that's the car half finished.

                           

I need to fix the strange angle of the accelerator pedal plus refit the bonnet, but that's the donkeywork done and the car should then be driveable and ready for fine tuning. The gearbox and overdrive are completely untested so here's hoping there are no horrors waiting.

I also made the mistake of cleaning the gunk off the underside of the bonnet - this is the same oily residue that was over the floorpans and inside the boot. I suspect a PO's attempt at rustproofing, but all it does is attract dirt. Sadly it comes off with elbow grease and panel wipe, so that's a job for this week. At least it's more pleasant than using thinners on underseal...

                                                                                   

Speaking of which, 'Er Indoors has put the foot down and flatly refused me the use of the washing machine for my garage 'whites'. Yes, most of those started out white, bar the pale green one to the left of centre, but softened underseal and thinners has left them discoloured and stinking. You'd think she'd be glad to help but, no, I'm on my own with those. Wish me luck...

                              

 

 

[Peter Truman]

 my adjusting rods were all ok 10 years ago, but around 9 months ago I tried a minor adjustment & the RH one on the reverse thread was totally seized heating and penetrating oil to no avail, Mick D came to the rescue with a good SH one he checked and ensured it was all OK esp as it had to come to Aus, I painted, greased, and fitted the replacement and adjusted again! 

The bonnet frame is slightly damaged ie RH side inner well arch is slightly pushed back (crack) but the bonnet all adjusts OK.

Here's some pictures of my Vitesse Mk2 Bonnet fitment at the front, note the slotted holes are at the bottom! The bonnet is a replacement sourced here after  someone backed into SWMBO its actually an Aus CKD unit as fitted to the Aus 12/50 which used a Vitesse 4 headlight bonnet.

[Colin Lindsay]

If you compare your photo with mine you can see that my bonnet tube is tight to the front chassis rail (slots to the bottom, too!) so there is no further adjustment possible. Yours has loads of room! That's what I'm hoping for when I refit, in all honesty it's only half an inch or so required but at present that's beyond possible. If the paint has dried I'll know how it fits later today.

  

 

[Wagger]

Lost a load of text earlier. Apologies if this duplicates.

I have experimented with fitting a stiffener down the bonnet centre and fitting washers and spring on the front rocker stud. Also made a 'Top Hat' to fit over the front SU carb so that the bonnet sits on these without causing bumps. It works, but is no help with the scraping of the bumper.

Next step is to secure the valance, re-profile the central alloy bumper so that it fits more tightly to the valance. Yes, it is all a bodge but at least I can drive it instead of playng with it. Will do it properly next Winter. Promise!! I am not taking pictures, that will risk abuse.

[Colin Lindsay]

Well, that's another little problem solved. 

Why was my accelerator pedal sitting at such a jaunty angle? Normally they sit at about 75 - 80 degrees, mine was about 110 or more. This meant the pedal had to be pressed past the vertical then down again before the cable would move. Fine if you want to drive with your foot permanently on the pedal and not allow it to come back over again, but too much movement for my liking.

I had to remove the old one to find out the problem. This is a pedal that I renovated with a new pivot and spring on a remanufactured bracket. Compare with the old one:

 

The new bracket is missing the end piece that hits against the pedal and prevents excess movement. Those two 'lugs' on the new version don't seem to make any contact. With nothing to stop it, it was moving right back as far as the new spring pushed it.

All I could do was refit the older pedal, rust and all, and we're now at a 'proper' angle for the cable. All cables once again connected taking advantage of the now permanently fixed manifold bracket.

  

So: jobs to do... fit the footwell carpet properly, replace the footwell side trim, refurbish the air filter box then refit the bonnet. And we're there! Roadworthy again.

After that comes the fine tuning and those little jobs that can be done any time, like that pedal rubber and the underdash trim. Getting there bit by bit.

[Peter Truman]

Interesting description Re pedal operation aftermarket item defective design again!

Colin the accelerator pedal looks to have a bolt as a pivot pin ie thread is showing the thread thro the bracket it will wear quicker than a pin with the pedal movement. I haven’t looked at the original set up but assume (mum always said that’s dangerous) it should be a long clevis pin to provide the max bearing area and not damage pivot holes.

I’ll get my hat and leave now!

[Colin Lindsay]

13 minutes ago, Peter Truman said:

Interesting description Re pedal operation aftermarket item defective design again!

Colin the accelerator pedal looks to have a bolt as a pivot pin ie thread is showing the thread thro the bracket it will wear quicker than a pin with the pedal movement. I haven’t looked at the original set up but assume (mum always said that’s dangerous) it should be a long clevis pin to provide the max bearing area and not damage pivot holes.

I’ll get my hat and leave now!

Well spotted and absolutely correct! My corner-cutting with the new bracket.... but all replaced as original using a proper pivot pin with split pins on the end.

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Peter Truman said:

Interesting description Re pedal operation aftermarket item defective design again!

I don't think it's actually "defective" as such but might reflect a different point in the evolution of the design. The back-stop wasn't needed on early cars with rod linkage (and no return spring on the pedal itself).

[Colin Lindsay]

14 hours ago, NonMember said:

I don't think it's actually "defective" as such but might reflect a different point in the evolution of the design. The back-stop wasn't needed on early cars with rod linkage (and no return spring on the pedal itself).

Still being sold as Herald accelerator pedal bracket by Rimmers, Paddocks etc even though my experience has just demonstrated that it doesn't work! It may work for others, it may work on the rod system but it didn't work on mine, and Heralds were always cable-operated, so off it goes to the shelf marked 'experience'. I've only found one company selling the 'proper' part (to my mind) and they're American.

[Josef]

Interesting. I wonder if it was used on other cars as I would’ve guess the demand for Herald and Vitesse parts would be considerably lower in the US than here.