The embarrassing Herald restoration thread - now the fiddly bits

[Colin Lindsay]

3 hours ago, PeteH said:

I must admit a tendency toward "wood rim" if I`m honest.

Pete

I found the wooden rim very hard on the fingers! A padded edge is easier for me to grip with less vibration, so the wooden wheel that was tried experimentally on my GT6 long ago soon came off in favour of padded.

[Wagger]

On 05/06/2022 at 11:35, Colin Lindsay said:

The thing about the smaller (13.5 inch) wheel is that it's almost ready to to; splined for the Triumph range, takes the original horn push and the internals for the horn, too. It will require recovering - eventually - due to splits at the joins but is in all respects an almost straight bolt-on. 

  

The other wheel whilst being wooden and heavily dished has no boss, and the bosses I have in the garage all have a pronounced 'lip' that will require machining off, so it's a bit more complicated. I can see another trip to the in-laws for an alloy boss, they could lathe one up in a short while, but it'll need splined for the column. They're amazingly busy at present so I don't think that's an easy option. 

Anyone know if the large saloon range has a thicker column? They seem to have a flat boss that could be adapted, the wooden wheel is just a flat centre so plenty of scope for drilling around the rim, but not if the column is of greater diameter. Modern bosses are available but sit out quite far, and there's no point in raising the wheel off the legs only to have it pressing into the chest...

                                            

 

On 05/06/2022 at 19:02, Colin Lindsay said:

Now that I'll agree with. It's the first thing I noticed about the convertible, once it hit the road - an hour or so driving and I get a splitting headache. No roof to hide under, any more, so the cap will have to substitute. I just need a good one... all of the baseball caps I have, mostly finishers awards from shows, are much too small. Or is my head too big?

Anyway: back to the wheel. That little shiny one is a 99% straight fit, the only problem being the horn-push bracket which sits proud due to the screws on the inside - the photo I  posted earlier shows how it sits off the base. It's not going to be a straightforward job to modify it, as it needs work on both the sprung bracket and the alloy boss. 

  

I could move the horn to a switch under the dash but it won't be handy to get at. I wonder if there's any other version of the three-legged clip, from any other model?

I've also found fitting instructions for the early GT6 wheel; that might help in having a boss made up from scratch if I can persuade the In-Laws to take on the job?

I have that lower shroud but not the outer one, but I also have some tatty clatty Herald wheels that could be sacrificed for the centre boss. I must go see if that's feasible.

 

Hi Colin.

The Herald/Vitesse suits my anatomy as I am 5 feet 9 ins with a 29 in leg and long arms. I am six feet two in span with arms outstretched. Descended more recently than most from the 'Missing Link'. Anyway, I have to set the front of the seat at minimum height and the wheel fully forward. I had considered an eccentric wheel but that would jam every turn. The size ten feet fill the footwell too.

[Colin Lindsay]

I've been quiet here recently, things have been going well enough in the garage and I'm leaving well enough alone. After the successful outing to Portadown on June 4th I hadn't been on the road until yesterday, and a planned TSSC Run around the South Armagh area.The steering wheel is still too big, and the footwell carpet, an overmat I added just before leaving, twisted about round the pedals. Easily sorted in time but still annoying on the run...

I started off with the hood up - to keep 'Er Indoors happy - but it makes the Herald much more noisy and a couple of times I heard stones pinging round the wheelarches, very clearly.

Three miles from home, crash bang rattle... I thought the exhaust had dropped off. Pulled over, looked round, no sign of anything. Moved off, once again, rattle crash. 'Er Indoors says it's from the front.

Opened the bonnet and her eagle eye spots one of the bonnet stays, which has detached from the suspension turret and is flailing around. The stones I thought I heard must have been the bolt and nut dropping off. As my tools and cable ties are all under the spare wheel, a  quick rummage along the hedge got some farmer's bailing twine and I tied it up to the bonnet tube. Job done. Down the dual carriageway and tried the overdrive for the first time - it works. The engine's running a bit too low, I can't tell the speed as for some reason the speedo has just stopped working. Caused by the overdrive? No idea, it shouldn't make any difference but I hope any fault is at the speedo end.

We got to the meeting point and down goes the hood, plus 'Er Indoors' temperature. The sun's shining, I'm in a short-sleeved top, she's got two coats, a scarf, a wooly hat and a blanket and she's freezing.

      

Three club cars turn up, that's the lot. Off we go in convoy, some great roads, the Heralds really travelling and pulling well. A quick coffee stop - well, 90 minutes by the time we got the ladies to stop shopping - and off again through some lovely scenery, including the local version of 'L'Arc de Triumph'.....

             

Around 60 miles in all, the Herald went really well bar the passenger claiming it was cold - I even took my hat off, it was so warm - and one small episode about 500 yards from home... something slipped, caught, slipped again, caught... that's the best way I can describe it. It was like the overdrive coming on and off two or three times in quick succession. I had noticed that when coming on, it was fine, but hard to tell if it went off again, and several times I had to double check to make sure that it wasn't stuck on especially before reversing. No idea what it was, the O/d was turned off at the time, but it's made me paranoid now. It wasn't fuel starvation, or not that I'd recognise from experience. I'm going to get a new switch in any case, the old one is a bit bent.

Otherwise: no coolant loss, no oil loss, plugs all fine and bar a slight misfire at idle I'd say we're running well. The doors still catch the bonnet wings, more so on the passenger side. Steering wheel is too big, there's slight understeer, and the brakes could be a tad better, probably the rears need adjusted, but then we had two up for a change. Must be a real experience with four...

Next outing will be 12 miles to another static show on the 25th.

 

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

Rain, rain, torrential rain... non stop. Definitely convertible weather. I'm inside with a coffee and the poor cat is on the windowsill, outside, and the rain is beating down. He's a stray we've christened Mister Hiss as that's all he used to do, but two weeks or so further on he's just as desperate for attention and food as they all are, and is just a lost big softy trying to be gruff and fierce. Still not getting in, though.

As a concession to the rain I've replaced the wiper blades on the Herald, which were dire on Friday night. I've found out why... the passenger side especially appears to have been shaved flat. It can't have worn that way against the screen, not even over fifty-odd years, so for some reason the PO has trimmed them. A new one from the spares pile will cure that. I have an entire shelf of used wipers and arms, so must seriously look into obtaining replacement rubbers. After all, the stainless parts don't rust and are as good as new when polished up.

  

The poor Herald having lost both overdrive and speedometer is in bits again. It breaks my heart to undo all the good work of previous days, especially when I'm breaking seals and undoing glued components, but there's nothing else for it. I just had to unpeel all of the Dodomat, which has softened over time to take on the contours of the floors and other items, and is now like tacky glue, but can't be helped. I want it on the road again for next weekend, too.

First thing was the speedo drive - why no speedo? I disconnected the cable from the gearbox and it turned easily, and by spinning it between finger and thumb I was able to make the speedometer register. I also removed the inner cable and it's perfect, no twists or fraying. Next step was to remove the actual angle drive... and there's the problem.

  

Something has eaten it! Unfortunately when I opened the packet, sealed this many years, I found that my spare is also missing the drive part, so it's a replacement for me. I've no idea what has happened to this one, but I have a theory that the washer I used - the recommended 7/16 size - was too small for the outer, and able to move about. This put it tight to the drive which, being square, jammed when the flat edge hit against the washer, and therefore unwound during about 50 miles of driving. The solution is not only a new drive, but a better washer, like this:

                                                                 

Goes round the edges, keeps the proper endfloat, but cannot move in any closer to the drive mechanism. You learn the hard way, sometimes. Replacement angle drives abound, just make sure it's a Triumph version, and original Smiths seem to be the one to go for but they're over £60. There are new versions with circlips, but whether or not that makes them any better is open to debate. What is in them that you can really refurbish at home? The screw on the top, by the way, is for greasing the mechanism, provided you can actually get at it once fitted.

                                                                                   

They're also forty prices, too - no way anyone of Ulster-Scots descent is going to fall for this one:

                                        

Obviously that firm has a lot of 'overheads'. A cheaper version plus a new cable should hopefully cure my problem. nothing anoys me more than a component not working, I've no interest in top speed or acceleration times, but driving along roads chanting 'one one thousand, two one thousand' knowing that 'four one thousand' between streetlights is 30mph does get a bit wearing. I sometimes worry about the PO of this car, given that a spare although used speedo cable was clearly marked: 'accelerator'...

                                                                    

Next step is to address the overdrive. It worked for all of one day then never no more, as the song goes. The solenoid was working with a good loud clack before it went dead so I doubt if it's stuck already, I doubt that due to oil pressure when driving they can actually stick in the 'on' position anyway, and assuming we haven't lost all of the gearbox oil already it must be electrical. So: step by step check.

Power is getting to the column switch, the in-line fuse is not blown, so next check is the interruptor switch at the gearbox. This is getting power but needs a good firm shove on the gearstick to operate it and show power at the other terminal. I reckon the tip is worn away slightly, but it's also certainly a smaller tip than the others I have and this can't help when the extra movement is needed - upper / left in photo below.

  

I'll replace the switch to give it a fighting chance and maybe bend the bracket slightly too in order to make better contact with the operating cam. All parts, including a replacement for the slightly bent column switch now on order, so should be with me by Tuesday and that should hopefully cure the problem.

We had the same phenomenon on Friday last - move off in first, select second, and the car lurched as if overdrive was coming on. Obviously it shouldn't if the cam only works in third and fourth. I can't see the solenoid being stuck 'on' or rather am hoping that it isn't, but then the higher gears were not showing any indication of being in overdrive. Wait for the parts and then we'll see.

The only other work I'm debating is fitting another centre tunnel, having found one from an early Spitfire that looks as though it will fit the contours of my early bulkhead.

                                                                                           

                                          

If this one is straight down along the driver's side as shown, with no bulge, then I can remove all of the mods I used to seal the later 'bulged' tunnel. It certainly looks correct but at over £100 it's a lot to find out that it doesn't fit the Herald. I must make a few enquiries and confirm before committing. I'm not going to waste the price of a tank of petrol!

If only we could run on rainwater. Lots of that about.

[Josef]

I’m sure I, or any other of the Spitfire owners around, can do a bit of bulkhead measuring for you to double check the 948 bulkhead does indeed have the same size aperture. There was another thread a few weeks back where this was discussed and the consensus was the early Herald and all Spitfires shared a tunnel cover. 

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Josef said:

I’m sure I, or any other of the Spitfire owners around, can do a bit of bulkhead measuring for you to double check the 948 bulkhead does indeed have the same size aperture. There was another thread a few weeks back where this was discussed and the consensus was the early Herald and all Spitfires shared a tunnel cover. 

I'd appreciate that! The reason being is the thread that Phil C posted on fitting a tunnel cover to his MK1 Spitfire, and it was completely wrong so had to be extended. If it matches the contours of the bulkhead - great - and the gearstick comes up where its' meant to - even better! The Herald cardboard version is 18" from bulkhead to front edge of gearlever hole.

[Colin Lindsay]

Here we are, nearly four hours on from that last post of mine, and still torrential rain. The cat is now on the windowsill to the rear of the house where there's still some shelter. At this rate I'll need an Amphicar, because as soon as I buy it, the rain will stop and I can get the Herald out on the road again.

 

 

[Josef]

So these are not the most accurate measurements as access and visibility is a little awkward! Hopefully they help though. The attached sketch is the hole in the bulkhead as measured from the engine bay (looking towards the rear of the car). I get 18” with a tape laid on the passenger side flange and wiggled under the h-frame, from the bulkhead to the rear of the gear lever gaiter (including carpets etc).

[Colin Lindsay]

Thank you!! That's really appreciated. Obviously as you probably already know from my musings it's the straighter edge to the left in your photo that counts; the one with the measurement of 7" where my early bulkhead lacks the bulge of the later cars. 18 inches to the rear of the gearlever gaiter is quite a difference from mine which is 18" to the front of it, allowing maybe three inches for the diameter of the hole it may mean that the entire tunnel is actually shorter?

[Badwolf]

Colin - As you know, I have my MkIV cover on the bench. Would photos with a tape measure for scale help in any way?

[Colin Lindsay]

21 minutes ago, Badwolf said:

Colin - As you know, I have my MkIV cover on the bench. Would photos with a tape measure for scale help in any way?

Yes it would, immensely! What I need to confirm is that a) the profile is correct for my bulkhead on the driver's side, and I'm almost sure it is thanks to Josef's sterling help, but I also need to confirm that it's long enough to take the gearlever in its' current position - I may be able to get away with any shortage in the actual body length by using an extension tunnel plate / cover but if the gearlever comes out in the wrong place then due to the shape of the top of the cover there may be no room to cut a hole further back, if indeed that was the only solution. Here are a few guidance photos of the length of my cover:

From the bulkhead edge to the front of the gearlever hole, 18 inches.

From the bulkhead edge to the rear of the gearlever hole, 21 inches.

From the bulkhead edge to the rear of the housing top, 24 inches.

All approx by about 1/2 inch or so allowing for wear and distortion of the original. The tunnel at the rear stands 9 1/2 inches from floor to edge of gearlever hole and is so shaped:

  

The Spitfire version in my earlier photo appears to be very straight at the rear profile, with no room to move the gearlever aperture back if necessary. Any other measurements or photos will be very gratefully received.

 

[Badwolf]

Ok. It's far from finished (as you are probably aware) but I will get onto it for you tomorrow. By the way, neither of the versions in your last post match up with the shape of mine.

[Josef]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Thank you!! That's really appreciated. Obviously as you probably already know from my musings it's the straighter edge to the left in your photo that counts; the one with the measurement of 7" where my early bulkhead lacks the bulge of the later cars. 18 inches to the rear of the gearlever gaiter is quite a difference from mine which is 18" to the front of it, allowing maybe three inches for the diameter of the hole it may mean that the entire tunnel is actually shorter?

Sorry, when talking about the gear lever position I switched to referring to it from the driver’s viewpoint... So 18” ish along the lowest LH edge of the tunnel to the edge of the gear-lever gaiter closest to the bulkhead. However, as BW has an example on the bench, that’s going to be easiest to measure! The carpet, h-frame and so on will be giving me a pretty large error for sure regardless. 

[NonMember]

12 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

The Spitfire version in my earlier photo appears to be very straight at the rear profile, with no room to move the gearlever aperture back if necessary.

That probably makes sense, as the Spitfire one (even if shared with early Heralds) only ever fitted four-cylinder cars, so only needs one position for the gear lever. The late Herald cover has room for two positions because it's shared with Vitesse and GT6.

[Colin Lindsay]

13 hours ago, Badwolf said:

By the way, neither of the versions in your last post match up with the shape of mine.

...and thereby lies the problem, hit squarely on the head! Early bulkhead on a late car, where it seems the only 'correct' profile of tunnel available today is from a Spitfire, which may be a different size and fitment against the Herald floorpans. I may need to leave things until I get to Stafford where hopefully some of the suppliers will have some that I can compare, side by side.

[Badwolf]

Ok. Photos to follow later. Sorry but a bit busy at the moment.

[Josef]

If the Spitfire and early Herald tunnels are not identical I’ll be really surprised. Mostly because then I can think of no reason for the Spit ones being manufactured with a useless, inaccessible, carpeted over coin tray!

[Badwolf]

Colin - Here are some pictures of my tunnel cover.  I was not really going to post photos just yet but if you need help, then.....!!! If you need any specific angles let me know.. You should be able to work out the rough dimensions from the tape in each shot.

as you can see, it's far from finished but slowly getting ....somewhere!!

[Colin Lindsay]

As Paddocks have very kindly matched their usual excellent service and 24 hour delivery (take that, Mister Protocol!) I've jumped to the speedo drive and overdrive again, and left the tunnel cover for an hour or two. I'm almost certain that a Spitfire tunnel will fit, but am going to postpone the purchase for a month or two for two reasons: first being I'm going to Stafford in August and may get the chance to compare two side by side, and what's more buy one there to save postage costs, but the second reason is that I want the Herald back on the road asap and so waiting even a week for a tunnel to arrive will keep the Herald off the road too long. Once the good weather (what good weather?) ends I'll begin the restoration of the front end of the car, which includes removal of the dashboard and windscreen in order to work on the screen pillars and A-posts which are solid but tatty, and of course replace said dashboard and surround with something better, or with less damage anyway. That's for January, or thereabouts.

The angle drive has arrived, and interestingly is one of the circlip versions; even more interestingly is that it comes with a set of instructions from Moss. Moss are selling these for £44.60, but Paddocks can oblige for £35. Must be these overhead thingies again, but I'm grateful for the saving. It even came with the copper washer, which although a good size wasn't an exact fit, so I'm using the thinner but wider version which I dug out before.

                                                                       

I'm also fitting a new cable and hopefully that will be that. No more counting the lampposts as I approach speed limits again.

The other parts which arrived today were the overdrive inhibitor switch and the column stalk. The stalk which I have fitted, works, but is a bit tatty, having been bent and then sort of straightened again but not very well. There's no urgency in fitting so it too can wait.

The inhibitor switch fitted easily, and with the gearlever moved into 3rd and 4th is making very definite and solid contact, much more than the old switch.

                                                                         

The cabling is silicone coated and has been clamped well out of the way of any potential damage or wear, so should last a while. Once fitted, I again tested the circuit to find power at the solenoid, my test bulb lit up, but no click whatsoever. I cleaned the earth connection and strung a second one just in case, but still no result. Sadly, off comes the solenoid. As they're almost the price of a tank of fuel to replace I'll try to salvage this one, which was working until recently.

Easy to get at with my modified spanner, but did someone say there would be a 'thimbleful' of oil? I think the entire gearbox has drained so far.

  

So, off comes the solenoid. If you shake me, do I not rattle? Seems so. I'd like to take the top off to inspect and clean the piston, but the circlip is playing silly beggars and won't shift, and if I remember correctly I broke the last one I tried. The photo confirms... but the piston won't come out of that one in order for a refurbishment. The photo shows where it sits and nothing will budge it. It's a pity as I'd like to work on it, too, and so have a spare that I can maybe trade for fuel.

  

I daren't take the chance of breaking that good one, my circlip pliers are slightly too big for the holes, and I don't want to prise it out without having a replacement. The solenoid does rattle, so I've bench tested it and got movement of the piston, albeit very slight movement. I'm assuming that it does not need to move so far that there's daylight through those holes in the side? I don't think so... so now the intention is to rebuild the system, refill the oil, reconnect the speedo cable at both ends, get the driver's seat in and go for a quick spin with no tunnel fitted. That's going to be an experience... especially at the speed required to get third overdrive working.

All I need is a dry day. August, probably.

[Peter Truman]

To remove piston if I remember correctly I used an oversized self tapper with just enough screw in the hole to get a lock on and it pulled out easily.

Sounds brutal but no damage and o ring replaced and nice click but there is min movement

[PeteH]

Measurement taken from flange, 13/60 Cover.

Might be of some assist?.

Pete

 

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Peter Truman said:

To remove piston if I remember correctly I used an oversized self tapper with just enough screw in the hole to get a lock on and it pulled out easily.

Sounds brutal but no damage and o ring replaced and nice click but there is min movement

That worked! Piston now out, o-rings a bit grotty so will replace those.

Once I freed this one up I bench tested it; the piston moves about 1 mm if even that. Just the slightest movement. I've cleaned up the metal bits, the insides do rattle considerably once the piston is out, and I've dosed it with contact cleaner to clean up the insides. I'll replace the o-rings, but no-one sells the circlip. Any idea of what size it is, before I go camp the Motorfactors tomorrow? I'll need more than one as the intention is to refurbish both.

THIS however has me slightly worried... a great site called Overdrive Spares, apologies for the small photo... 'non-return valve and ball'. BALL? Is that the circular plate from the end, where the circlip sits, and was the ball that little metal tinkly noise I heard when it came apart? Oh Lord... off for a quick and desperate search...

Actually I don't think it is, according to this excellent guide that I've just found:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c6dec53b10f25d4edf0b3f7/t/5d0196463994c400012c8af6/1560385096364/J+Type+Overdrive+Part+I.pdf

[Pete Lewis]

the clip is around 10mm but i dont have one to measure     so thats really helpful   Ha !

i wont ask where is the circlip    yes i  will ..............come on    where is it  ?????

dont think you need the NKC29A

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

42 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

the clip is around 10mm but i dont have one to measure     so thats really helpful   Ha !

i wont ask where is the circlip    yes i  will ..............come on    where is it  ?????

dont think you need the NKC29A

Pete

No, that's further down into the innards, so not a worry at present. 

Motorfactors no good this morning, the young guy behind the counter did admittedly know what a circlip was but kept bringing me entirely the wrong thing, external rather than internal. In the end I went and camped AJM Engineering, AKA the in-laws, it didn't even cost me biscuits as I didn't bring any, but a rummage through the endless line of metal drawers found a very close substitute for the one I removed.

Ten minutes or so from now I'll know for certain if those fit. The O-rings might be a bit smaller than currently fitted, again once I get one removed I can compare. If so, that should be one working solenoid, and one spare. The bag they're resting on is the Moss bag from the new angle drive, which is already fitted, and once the overdrive goes on and the oil is refilled we should be well on the way back to the road. I'll have to find another tunnel cover seal as I ruined the last one removing it.

 

[Colin Lindsay]

Latest update is that the original tunnel cover refused to go back on again; the holes would not line up at all and the area at the two top corners was almost an inch too low to match the holes in the bulkhead. The tunnel cover does not like the heater flap assembly, in that the top edge will not fit up in behind it, between the bulkhead and the flap box. I tried fitting the tunnel cover first, last time, then replacing the heater, but this just bent the metal and left it so that the flap would not move at all. This time by dint of considerable pressure I was able to get it most of the way in behind but the last half inch just defeated me, especially where I tried to help it with a nylon hammer and ended up knocking a hole in it. Oops.

This illustrates perfectly how procrastination, dithering, and indecisiveness waste time; I went on to Paddocks' website on Wednesday to price / buy tunnel covers - their Spitfire version looks the part at £82.50 - decided against it; went back later, got right to the 'pay now' bit, decided against it again; after all the entire assembly may come out over next Winter for work on the bulkhead and dashboard areas as it will require respraying of various areas so the carpet will have to come out anyway so why not leave it to later in the year and fit the old tunnel cover again etc etc?

Well tonight proves why, I've wasted two days so far so now I'm £104 down but that should be the end of the fitting shenanigans.

Here I am, back to square one, no tunnel cover until probably next Wednesday whereas if I had ordered it last Wednesday it would have arrived today or tomorrow. You learn.

In the meantime all I can do is refill the gearbox - a big 'thank you!' to whoever it was in another thread concerning removing the overdrive solenoid who stated: "You'll get maybe a thimbleful of oil"

I had an entire lake over the floor.

As the Herald won't be on the road for this weekend I'll start on the bonnet alignment once again. I dug out the original bonnet support tube, blasted and sprayed it. In the greenhouse - paint dries in seconds and there are no plants to kill, just giant spiders. It's wet outside but warm inside so works for me.

  

You can see the damage to the end of one of the tubes, possibly even rewelded on as a result of accident distortion, but the gaps were perfect with this one fitted so it's worth retrying. The bonnet will have to come off, yet again, so this means undoing all my nice wiring and cable-clipping, but it has to be done. The bonnet gaps as they are are terrible, and the doors are hitting the wings every time they open and therefore causing yet more damage. 

A nice topcoat or three of white:

                                                                                     

That will be refitted once the bonnet comes off, probably tomorrow although there's a show about 15 miles away that might be worth attending. Obviously not in the Herald.

I'll get those gaps aligned yet, if it kills me in the process. 

I'm also breaking in a new garage mate this week... someone to look pityingly at me when I talk to myself. He plays with everything, chews everything, explores everything and eats the dead flies off the floor with very obvious enjoyment. He's called Fuzz, just by coincidence and nothing to do with any honorary TSSC official. Ain't he great?