Vitesse 6 petrol gauge

[ahebron]

I see many comments about different tank fuel senders and gauges with voltage regulators and gauges without voltage regulators.

I gather that the 6 screw sender that is on my tank is for unregulated voltage to the gauge but how do I tell if I have the correct gauge?
Both the fuel gauges I have look the same and are Jaegers but this could mean I have the wrong gauges.
I have had two parts Vitesse cars over the years,  the Mk2 that I used to build a MK4 Gtfire and the Mk1 that was just for bits.
My Vitesse 6 is 1965 with the similar dash to the 2 litre Mk1, the speedo is the 110mph version and has no voltage reg on the back.
The wiring loom is from a 2 litre as the 6 one was a mess, this also gives me a reversing light circuit already in the loom

I have removed the dash to attempt a rebuild/strenghtening of the pressed cardboad.

 

Thanks
Adrian

 

[Pete Lewis]

im sure all 1600 were non stabilised as were all early cars , the simplest way is non stabilised needles will move if shaken and if powered by what ever the needle moves instantly to its reading 

the needle is a lightly damped spindle with small magnetic armatures that react to two field coils

the stabilised needles will not move when shaken and if powered up move quite slow and steady as the needle is fixed to a bimetal stip which is heated by a small coil of wire wrapped around the strip as the strip heats it bends and this moves the needle spindle 

if youre lucky the rear terminals can be marked with some appropriate clues like + - B  S etc.

so a quick wrist action/shake  will  help make a decision 

dont have the exact data but being a 6 hole does not identify , 6 hole was used on both in the early days 

mk1  >would be stabilised  regardless of holes /no holes 

pete

[dave.vitesse]

Not sure Pete, but the old memory tells me the Vit6 used a moving iron meter for the fuel and Temp. In which case it's not polarity conscious.

Dave

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

 dont have the exact data but being a 6 hole does not identify , 6 hole was used on both in the early days 

mk1  >would be stabilised  regardless of holes /no holes 

pete

Easiest way to check is to look for a stabiliser, or the wiring for one on your loom. My early Herald has the 6-hole fitment but a stabiliser on the back of the speedo, hence I know which it is.

Where would the stabiliser be on the Vitesse? Herald is rear of the speedo; I'd suspect that the single-gauge Vitesse would be the same if it had one fitted. All I've been able to find is MK2 2-litre from 1966 onwards, but my Herald from 1963 thereabouts had one, and I'd be surprised if Triumph changed only the Herald and not other models too.

 

[Paul H]

25 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Easiest way to check is to look for a stabiliser, or the wiring for one on your loom. My early Herald has the 6-hole fitment but a stabiliser on the back of the speedo, hence I know which it is.

Where would the stabiliser be on the Vitesse? Herald is rear of the speedo; I'd suspect that the single-gauge Vitesse would be the same if it had one fitted. All I've been able to find is MK2 2-litre from 1966 onwards, but my Herald from 1963 thereabouts had one, and I'd be surprised if Triumph changed only the Herald and not other models too.

 

My Vitesse mk2 has the stabiliser on the back of the speedo 

Paul

[ahebron]

My Vit 6 speedo (110mph) doesnt have a stabiliser but the other 3 speedos (120mph) 2 litre have voltage stabilisers on the back of them.

As I stated I am using a 2 litre loom which doesnt mean much as I can bypass where the stabiliser goes if I dont need to use one.
But Pete mentioned that the 6 hole fuel sender was used for stabilised and non stabilised so how do you check if it is a nonstabilised or stablised sender. I am assuming a resistance reading.

Nothing like headin off to bed wondering what answers will await me in the morning.

[Colin Lindsay]

All I've been able to find is a screw fitting - part number 213411- with either a solid cased body and spade terminals, or an open-body design with screw terminals, but no distinction between stabilised or non-stabilised. This brings me to the thought that the actual senders are the same, and only the gauges are different - would this be feasible? - but if there is a difference, the screw terminals are from the earlier cars and the spades from later models.

Mine have the model numbers FT3331- 06 and FT3331-56; the first also has the letters MM1 stamped around the edge. The estate version is TB1114/007 but nothing on any shows stabilised, or not, and Mick Dolphin says that part number is from the Spitfire Mk3.

  

This link goes to the Revington TR site and explains some of the changes in the TR range, but not the Vitesse / Herald models.

https://www.revingtontr.com/productimages/docs/00001735/is0011-fuel-gauges-and-sender-units-issue-3-5925692.pdf

[dave.vitesse]

The Vit6 has no stabiliser. The 2 Litre and Mk2 does and both are mounted on the rear of the Speedo.

Dave 

[NonMember]

34 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

All I've been able to find is a screw fitting - part number 213411- with either a solid cased body and spade terminals, or an open-body design with screw terminals, but no distinction between stabilised or non-stabilised. This brings me to the thought that the actual senders are the same, and only the gauges are different - would this be feasible?

No, the sender is definitely incompatible. It's far more likely that nobody supplies non-stabilised senders any more, although it's possible the screw terminals are for non-stabilised and spade connectors for stabilised.

[Colin Lindsay]

5 minutes ago, NonMember said:

No, the sender is definitely incompatible. It's far more likely that nobody supplies non-stabilised senders any more, although it's possible the screw terminals are for non-stabilised and spade connectors for stabilised.

That would sound feasible if my stabilised 1200 had not had a screw-fitting 6-screw sender. Problem is that it was last on the road so long ago that I can't remember how the needle moved!

Must go out and shake it! (BTW I've edited the earlier post with a few links and more info)

[ahebron]

On 02/05/2020 at 23:04, Colin Lindsay said:

A

https://www.revingtontr.com/productimages/docs/00001735/is0011-fuel-gauges-and-sender-units-issue-3-5925692.pdf

Thanks for that info sheet Colin.

It appears that both my petrol gauges are BF which is bimetal, you can just see the number tucked under the right hand side of the dial shroud when hodling it. Number BF2201/08 you have to hold the gauge at the right angle and I used an illuminated magnifying glass to assist in reading.

My sender which is 6 hole reads 270 ohm empty to 15 ohm full which fits into sender unit 2 on the list which specs 240 ohm empty to 20 ohm full and is the resisitive range for the BF type gauges. As Pete said they had 6 hole for stabilised and non stablised.

As I a using a 2 litre loom this will work fine as I can put a stabiliser on one of the speedo screw legs. 

Now I either need to find a satbilised voltage temperature gauge or run that at 12 volts.

[Pete Lewis]

temperature senders     stabilised   GTR108      non stabilised   121997   

way back they were colour coded green and red   insulators but many now a re just  ....black  

again cant mix and match      

Pete

[ahebron]

Thanks for those part numbers Pete

An interesting observation with the ancillary gauges I have in my collection is the stabilised gauges have 1 mounting stud on the rear while the non stabilised have 2 mounting studs. This is only with a very small sample group but it would be interesting if anyone else is seeing this with their gauges. 

[Colin Lindsay]

If you mean earlier gauges have two 'legs' to screw in behind the dash and later gauges have a single bracket with the hole in the middle, it was probably ease of manufacture and fitting, or maybe just cost. By that time most gauges were stabilised so it's probably an evolution thing rather than any kind of identification.

Now I'll have to go out later and check for myself..

[Pete Lewis]

ive got two legs but never been screwed on the dashboard  !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Colin Lindsay]

Most people prefer 'in behind the dash'... we're not all exhibitionists!

Anyway are you stabilized? Do you have any kind of aid to stop your pointer waving about?

[Pete Lewis]

 stabilised  ...........only the left leg    

Pete

[dave.vitesse]

With the different gauges generally you can get the full and empty to read correctly, but the measurement in-between where it's inaccurate i.e. Quarter, Half, Three-Quarter.

Dave   

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, dave.vitesse said:

With the different gauges generally you can get the full and empty to read correctly, but the measurement in-between where it's inaccurate i.e. Quarter, Half, Three-Quarter.

Dave   

I've been following this thread, at a safe distance of course to reduce the risk of getting the virus, and now it is getting interesting.

OK so I have a 13/60 with stabilised not Vit. My gauge only reads 3/4 ish when full but by the time the tank gets down to 1/2 the neelde is about correct. I'd like it to be better if possible without having to remove the float assembly. The temp gauge is fine so the regulator works ok.

Sorry about this detour round the ringroad . . . 

[Pete Lewis]

ive got a smiths test box  but youre a bit too far away without the lockdown   these would easy sort out which part is working correctly 

[NonMember]

47 minutes ago, Chris A said:

My gauge only reads 3/4 ish when full but by the time the tank gets down to 1/2 the neelde is about correct. I'd like it to be better if possible without having to remove the float assembly. The temp gauge is fine so the regulator works ok.

How often does your temperature gauge read fully hot?

I would test by connecting a 20 ohm resistor between the tank sender wire and ground. If the gauge then reads full, your sender is faulty. If not, see if you can repeat the test with the resistor directly on the gauge. Any change in these tests indicates a wiring fault. If the gauge still only gives 3/4 then my money's on the regulator. They fail in that way much more often than the gauges do.

If you don't have a 20 ohm resistor, connecting directly will work but you're looking for the gauge to go off-scale and it's best to keep the test down to a few seconds.

[dave.vitesse]

For the Stab system the following values are used to test the gauges-

Full/Hot  =      20 Ohms.

Half/Normal = 72 Ohms.

Empty/Cold =  270 Ohms.

Pete, Snap!

I did an article in March 2011 on this subject.

Dave

[Chris A]

2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

ive got a smiths test box  but youre a bit too far away without the lockdown   these would easy sort out which part is working correctly 

As on next Monday we are allowed to go as far as a radius of 100kms from home without having to fill in a form, even so you are still outside my zone 😷

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, NonMember said:

How often does your temperature gauge read fully hot?

 

It doesn't. It tends to rise to about 1/2 way when driving. If I stop the engine for a short break when I restart it rises above that before settling again once on the road. The stabiliser is quite new and (should I admit it?) electronic.

[NonMember]

14 minutes ago, Chris A said:

The stabiliser is quite new and (should I admit it?) electronic.

Probably dud then. They're rubbish quality. I had to replace the one on my Toledo three times before I got one that worked properly for more than a few weeks.