Oil seal recommendations

[Roger]

Hi All! Vitesse 2-Litre 1966:

I’m replacing my cracked HC-engine with an MB-engine from a 2000 Saloon that I found in Sweden. I hope that the gearbox from my (early) HC-engine will fit without problems on the MB-engine, I think it will. I did not have any problems with neither gearbox nor clutch before exept the fact that it was leaking oil really bad. So my plan is to only replace the oil seals and anything else needed in order to prevent leaking. I noticed that Rimmers have the oil seals and they only cost a few ponds. Normally I would not complain that the price is too low, but given the fact that it is such a pain to remove an engine and a gearbox I really want to buy good quality oil seals so that I don’t have to do it again in a year or two. Any recommendations would be appreciated. What supplier would you recommend for oil seals? Has anyone successfully used SKF or other "expensive stuff"? If so what part number? I wish I could do as Paula and take my gearbox to uncle Pete and get some of that magic fairy dust sprinkled over it, but that would be a long trip!

[RogerH]

Hi Roger,

What leaks are you trying to stop?

I am not familiar with the 2000 GB but the top cover looks very similar to the TR series of GB's

I replaced the selector rod 'O' rings with R21 lips seas. 3/4"x1/2"x 3mm - commonly available  You will need to machine the counterbore from 5/8" to 3/4". If it is any comfort I have a special reamer for this (with 1/2" pilot)

The OD selector shaft can leak. There is normally a square(ish) section 'O' ring at both ends.  Round section may apply too much pressure on the shaft.

I have heard that the 'Q' seals work well.

I had a monster leak on the front of the box where the input shaft seal sits on the shaft - it wasn't.  The seal can be fitted tooooooo deep into the extension housing. Serious drips frpm the 6-o-clock drain hole in the bell housing.

 

Roger Roger

[Roger]

Hello Roger,

I assume it is the rear output oil seal that is my main problem, but I will replace all seals that I get access to without taking the gearbox apart completely. Thanks for the tips above, I have to do a closer inspection of that area. I just got it out so haven't taken anything apart yet.

[Colin Lindsay]

29 minutes ago, Roger said:

Hi All! Vitesse 2-Litre 1966:

I’m replacing my cracked HC-engine with an MB-engine from a 2000 Saloon that I found in Sweden. I hope that the gearbox from my (early) HC-engine will fit without problems on the MB-engine, I think it will. I did not have any problems with neither gearbox nor clutch before exept the fact that it was leaking oil really bad. So my plan is to only replace the oil seals and anything else needed in order to prevent leaking. I noticed that Rimmers have the oil seals and they only cost a few ponds. Normally I would not complain that the price is too low, but given the fact that it is such a pain to remove an engine and a gearbox I really want to buy good quality oil seals so that I don’t have to do it again in a year or two. Any recommendations would be appreciated. What supplier would you recommend for oil seals? 

I've bought most of mine recently from James Paddock:

https://www.jamespaddock.co.uk/gearbox-od-3?pagenumber=2

Rear seal £3.45, front £2.25. No problems so far, although the gearboxes haven't covered many miles since the rebuilds. 

[Roger]

7 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I've bought most of mine recently from James Paddock:

https://www.jamespaddock.co.uk/gearbox-od-3?pagenumber=2

Rear seal £3.45, front £2.25. No problems so far, although the gearboxes haven't covered many miles since the rebuilds. 

Thanks Colin, good news. I assume even cheap seals can be ok, but they are so cheap it makes me suspisious!

[Pete Lewis]

you may need to use the HC flywheel  the MB is a ton weight/thicker     also check the flywheel spigot bush as im sure the spigots are larger on big saloon 

Pete

 

[Roger]

8 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

you may need to use the HC flywheel  the MB is a ton weight/thicker     also check the flywheel spigot bush as im sure the spigots are larger on big saloon 

Pete

 

Thanks Pete, I have just started to move parts from HC to MB engine so I will probably have a lot of questions which parts to use later on.

[Pete Lewis]

as a mk1 all the engine parts are the similar  the front engine plate has the 2000 mounts on where as the HC are bolted to bosses on the block

the rear engine plate has to change as the saloon engine sits at 15deg slant ,  good time to look at flywheels and spigots

Pete

[NonMember]

59 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

as a mk1 all the engine parts are the similar 

Between HC and MB of the same age, yes. Beware, though, that major changes were made at engine HC4500 and the equivalent MB (don't know that number) which render lots of the early/late parts incompatible.

[thescrapman]

Changes at hc4500 is change from 1600 bottom end to standardised one.

be careful with early MB blocks, they have a different casting, so no bits to bolt Vitesse engine mount too.

I have that tee-shirt. 

😞

[Roger]

1 hour ago, NonMember said:

Between HC and MB of the same age, yes. Beware, though, that major changes were made at engine HC4500 and the equivalent MB (don't know that number) which render lots of the early/late parts incompatible.

My HC-engine has number 643 so definitely an early example from October 1966. Some PO has made the number om my MB engine impossible to read, but I'm quite sure it is one of the later versions. I have both engines on the floor nex to each other so I guess I will just have to compare parts and see what will fit. It will be an interesting jigsaw puzzle!

[Roger]

11 minutes ago, thescrapman said:

Changes at hc4500 is change from 1600 bottom end to standardised one.

be careful with early MB blocks, they have a different casting, so no bits to bolt Vitesse engine mount too.

I have that tee-shirt. 

😞

Yes, I beleive my HC engine has smaller diameter crank, and the MB engine is a later version of the Mk I (not bossless) so will be interesting to see what can be used. I also have a MkII MG-engine (PI) which might be useful. Thanks everyone for your advice, it helps a lot.

Roger

[NonMember]

3 hours ago, Roger said:

My HC-engine has number 643 so definitely an early example from October 1966. Some PO has made the number om my MB engine impossible to read, but I'm quite sure it is one of the later versions.

OK, you're going to have at least one problem, which is that your early HC flywheel will not fit the later MB engine. My Vitesse is slightly later - registered in 1967 - and originally had an HC9xx engine. That had a crack in the block and it's now got HC56xx. I made the mistake of only acquiring the block, expecting everything internal to swap over.

You'll also find that the early engine front plate doesn't fit the later block (no clearance for the crank journal) or the aluminium insert under the bearing (early engines had one fixing bolt there, late ones had three). The saloon engine mountings can be cut off the MB engine, though, so hopefully you won't need to swap the plate.

Incidentally, an easy way to identify them is that early blocks have a breather hole next to the fuel pump - probably with a simple plate bolted over it on a 2L Vitesse engine - whereas later blocks don't. The fuel pump is also in a slightly different place, meaning they're not interchangeable either.

[Roger]

10 minutes ago, NonMember said:

OK, you're going to have at least one problem, which is that your early HC flywheel will not fit the later MB engine. My Vitesse is slightly later - registered in 1967 - and originally had an HC9xx engine. That had a crack in the block and it's now got HC56xx. I made the mistake of only acquiring the block, expecting everything internal to swap over.

You'll also find that the early engine front plate doesn't fit the later block (no clearance for the crank journal) or the aluminium insert under the bearing (early engines had one fixing bolt there, late ones had three). The saloon engine mountings can be cut off the MB engine, though, so hopefully you won't need to swap the plate.

Incidentally, an easy way to identify them is that early blocks have a breather hole next to the fuel pump - probably with a simple plate bolted over it on a 2L Vitesse engine - whereas later blocks don't. The fuel pump is also in a slightly different place, meaning they're not interchangeable either.

Thanks, I apreciate this info so that i don't have to "learn the hard way"! I also have two Mk II engines. One MG (PI from -74) and one ME-engine also from a 2000 Saloon. Does anyone know if the front plate from a Mk II will fit a Mk I block? If not , I will try to cut of the saloon engine mounts on the MB. I have no idea how to solve the flywheel / clutch issue though with the components I have... I was hoping that I could use the gearbox from the HC engine on my MB engine but don't know which clutch will fit. Thanks again for this very useful information.

Roger

[NonMember]

The late Mk1 block and the Mk2 block are nearly identical, so the front plate shouldn't be a problem. The gearbox and clutch didn't change (in any manner that would matter) throughout 2L Vitesse production. Your problem is the flywheel. I solved it by buying a Mk2 Vitesse flywheel from TRGB (the most local specialist to me) and using my original clutch from the early engine.

[Roger]

8 minutes ago, NonMember said:

The late Mk1 block and the Mk2 block are nearly identical, so the front plate shouldn't be a problem. The gearbox and clutch didn't change (in any manner that would matter) throughout 2L Vitesse production. Your problem is the flywheel. I solved it by buying a Mk2 Vitesse flywheel from TRGB (the most local specialist to me) and using my original clutch from the early engine.

I actually have a Vitesse Mk II flywheel that I bought from Canley Classics, so then I should have all the parts I need! Thanks again.

[Roger]

On 23/08/2020 at 13:20, Pete Lewis said:

as a mk1 all the engine parts are the similar  the front engine plate has the 2000 mounts on where as the HC are bolted to bosses on the block

the rear engine plate has to change as the saloon engine sits at 15deg slant ,  good time to look at flywheels and spigots

Pete

Removed the clutch and flywheels from both engines today. Got the Mk II Vitesse flywheel from Canleys a while ago and it seems to fit (indeed a lot heavier flywheel on the Saloon). My only problem now (I hope!!!) is the rear engine plate as you mention Pete. Incredible, I now have FOUR Triumph six pot engines in my possession after driving around Scandinavia TWICE, probably a lot longer distance than RBRR and I STILL dont have all the parts I need to build my engine 😣 But I noticed that Rimmers sell both the front engine plate (used and aluminium) and also the back plate. My concern is will it fit? My gearbox from 1966 has number HC585. Does anyone know if they also changeg gearbox design from HC4500? That back plate is expensive and it has to travel a long distance + customs... I tried to compared the HC backplate with the Mk II Saloon plate I have by putting them on top of each other and there are a lot of holes missing in the Mk II plate. Any advice much appreciated as always.

Rimmers engine back plate

[NonMember]

I'm pretty sure the back-plate and clutch housing didn't change throughout 2L Vitesse (and GT6) production. I certainly have a pre-4500 backplate on a post-4500 block on my Vitesse.

[Roger]

17 minutes ago, NonMember said:

I'm pretty sure the back-plate and clutch housing didn't change throughout 2L Vitesse (and GT6) production. I certainly have a pre-4500 backplate on a post-4500 block on my Vitesse.

Thanks, its still on the HC block, Will remove it from the HC engine tomorrow and try to use it on the MB engine.

[Pete Lewis]

all the small chassis 6 cyl back plates are the same there is no variation in part numbers

the front plate on the MB engine you could just cut the big saloon mount legs off no need to touch it .

you will be using the block threaded  castings 

and canley much cheaper   https://www.canleyclassics.com/?diagram=triumph-herald-13/60-gearbox-mainshaft&ptno=211514A

i used one on my vitesse its certainly a weight saver 

you must check the flywheel spigot diameter the big box is very much larger than the Vitesse  spigot 

if you use your HC back plate its a direct fit on the MB engine  ...so thats fine 

by the way when its off why not overlap it on the MB plate and accurately drill through to make a spare 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

13 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

i used one on my vitesse its certainly a weight saver 

Paddocks front £45 rear £67 so a lot cheaper still; I fitted both to this engine (It's an HC-prefix Vitesse engine) many moons ago and they're a good weight reduction.

I had the heavy saloon flywheel on my GT6 when I bought it; it was an MB-prefix engine from a large saloon and it made the car very smooth running and quiet compared to the lighter version which I have now.

[Roger]

23 hours ago, NonMember said:

I'm pretty sure the back-plate and clutch housing didn't change throughout 2L Vitesse (and GT6) production. I certainly have a pre-4500 backplate on a post-4500 block on my Vitesse.

You are quite right! I must have been very tired when I compared the parts...

[Roger]

23 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

all the small chassis 6 cyl back plates are the same there is no variation in part numbers

Confirmed with parts from a very early 1966 Vitesse 2-liter...

[Roger]

9 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Paddocks front £45 rear £67 so a lot cheaper still; I fitted both to this engine (It's an HC-prefix Vitesse engine) many moons ago and they're a good weight reduction.

I have never ordered parts from Paddocks before but they do have nice price and stock. But they do not mention which model the part will fit! mkI or mk II? Rimmers has that info for each part. Where I live I do not send wrong parts back. It has to be the correct item the first time 

[Badwolf]

Roger - Does the part number and the parts diagram not help. I usually get a list of part numbers for what I need from Canleys as their parts diagrams link directly to their stock, but then compare prices and stock holding with everyone else. Just take care that the car you think you have is what you actually have, says he with a Mkiv Spitfire with a Herald 13/60 engine which causes no end of fun.