Dave the tram Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 Following on from my thread under engines relating to oil types, which led on to noise from front of engine. I followed the advice to run it briefly without the fan belt to see if the noise disappeared. It did, so presumably alternator or water pump, not timing chain or engine bearings. I took this a step further by fitting a shortened emergency fan belt (yes the old trick with a pair of tights - I never did get a chance to do that for real, borrowing from a female passenger!). Just spinning the water pump was inconclusive, but connected in this way and running it briefly brought the noise back. Eureka. Am I correct in thinking that it’s the pump with impeller and pulley that holds the bearings and that the housing is just a plain housing? Looking at other threads and with experience of aftermarket parts generally, I’ll phone the suggested EP services and try and get it refurbished. I'm slowly learning - don’t assume the worst, just investigate methodically as it’s often something simpler and fixable. Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 The housing is indeed just a hollow, shaped housing, a channel for the water into which the impeller for the pump sits; all the workable bits are in the body of the pump itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted May 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 Yes, thanks for confirming.will pursue EP services on the phone as their website is still down. cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted May 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 Well, things are rarely simple with our old cars. Excellent service from EP services as recommended in reconditioning my water pump, but on refitting it I found one of the 3 nuts wouldn’t tighten with only moderate resistance on a short spanner. Checked the nut and tried a new one, then realised the stud as slowly pulling out.Now about to remove radiator to get at things better to remove the stud and have a look. Hoping a new stud is what’s needed, as original type housings seem to be unavailable now - just alloy ones for about £100. Re tapping and fitting an oversize stood is currently beyond my experience. Anyone know where o might get a descent housing from cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 probably easier to take the existing housing into any engineering firm or garage and get them to put a 5/16 unf helicoil in to repair the thread if damaged. If not a housing will be available from the usual breakers Sitbitz, spitfire graveyard, chic doig etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 Flea bay has Helicoil kits £9, upwards Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted May 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 Thanks all Stud came out easy and threads look poor so have ordered new one first class. I guess I should try and at least clean the threads in the housing before screwing it in. How exactly does a helicoil kit worK? I can see that cleaning the threads is useful, but how can you repair metal that’s missing other than to thread it to a slightly bigger stud by going into new metal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 yes if the thread isnt too bad in the housing you might be lucky and get away with just a new stud. They dont have to be torqued up a lot (12 - 14 ft.lb in my manual) but if that doesnt work the hole has to be drilled and tapped to a slightly larger size. The helicoil is basically a tube thats threaded inside and out so is screwed into the new hole leaving the original internal size thread for a stud to be screwed in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted May 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 Ah, now that makes sense. So presumably you have to accurately drill the old threads out and create the new hole and threads - I’ll look for YouTube clips of using a helicoil. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 They usually come as a kit with drill, tap and different length inserts. I think the drill and tap are special sizes to minimise the increase in hole size required... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted May 31, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 Got it, seen the ‘how to’ videos on YouTube and found helicoil kits on flea bay, cheers all. Will see how well the new stud fits when it arrives and take it from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted June 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 Well, still not there. The new stud pushed straight into the hole. Compared it to existing stud and the latter is a bit bigger with fewer, bigger threads (about 11 on the long section compared to 16 on the correct stud. Perhaps all three have already been repaired to slightly larger stud size, one of which has failed and pulled out. Found a bolt the exact same size as existing stud, but that pulled out as well so the female threads are spoilt - I had thought I might make new stud out of that. So will order a Helicoil repair kit for 15/16 unf as I think the hole is still small enough and will still need a bit of drilling out to fit the helicoil. Then use the new stud (and make note in the book for any future owner that the studs are non standard and now different sizes!)Question - in ordering the kit, presumably unf is different from unc, and when they describe for example as 5/16 x 24 unf, what does the 24 signify. I’m looking at different suppliers to find one that can give 1st class delivery so I can get cracking. cheers, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted June 2, 2021 Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 unf if fine thread which is what you need unc is course usually used in ally. the 24 is the number of turns/threads per inch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 2, 2021 Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 for a 5/16 UNF helicoil repair I think the drill that comes in the kit will be 8.3mm diameter so you need to measure the diameter of the stud that came out. It should be less that 8.3mm otherwise the thread that you do for the helicoil wont be perfect. The alternative is to identify the thread of the bigger stud and helicoil for that and then at least all 3 would be the same... UNF is a fine thread and UNC course which means the thread of the latter is chunkier and better for softer metals like aluminium. Saying that sometimes the same size of UNF (and all types of thread) can come in different grades of chunkiness so the 24 means the number of threads per inch for a perfect identification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted June 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 Thanks Johny, that all makes sense. I’d worked some of that out from internet/Wikipedia and you have plugged the gaps. I will go straight out and check against that drill size. I know what you mean about standardising all three studs, but might not be easy finding correct length stud in that size, once I’ve managed to work out the size. The existing stud has damaged thread, whereas I now have a replacement 5/16 stud. At the end of the day, I’m driving a car that has ended up with a metric brake calliper one side and imperial the other. But the car generally works very well keeps me happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted June 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 Well, I always said that working on old cars taught you patience! Got the Helicoil kit and new stud, fitted it ok, put everything back, with refurbed pump, radiator back on etc. Filled it and weeping from pump (it’s a new new gasket and a smear of silicon sealant, as recommended for older cars by my local garageman). I hadn’t tightened the 3 nuts too much so tried a bit more - and a different stud pulled out, threads looked like they had rotted away, both male and female. I’m not a gorilla mechanic and only using fingers on a spanner with a 5 inch lever. Now that I’ve come this far, having got the Helicoil kit that seems to have worked ok, will continue. I’ve taken everything off again and will rethread the other hole and fit another new stud. Bit of advice though please on using Helicoil. The inserts are a few mm longer than the hole (2 of the three stud holes emerge into the water channel of the housing). So the far end with the tab on emerges from the other side before it’s fitted in flush. The first one started to unravel cos I’m twisting the tab tool with a couple of loose threads having emerge. Extracted the inserted and fitted a new one, this time pulling slightly on the tool once it had started, whereas your instinct is to push slightly. This kept the coil more compact and did the job. But I can’t break the tab off as no resistance to push against, and I have a few loose threads emerging into the water channel of the housing. I decided to live with this for one stud, but doesn’t seem ideal. I can’t get at it to trim the loose threads, perhaps a slightly shorter Helicoil insert would be best if they make them. Trying to trim one down seems tricky. Any ideas, or do you reckon live with a bit of flow obstruction? If all this fails I’m back to sourcing a new housing. Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 Two of the studs (the ones I can see) do protrude down inside the housing by at least 1/4 inch, maybe more, but not right to the back. You could slide a thick washer in behind, or angled metal strip, whatever fills the gap, and break the helicoil off against that if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 You may wish to consider "Shouldered Studs"?. IF you know someone with a lathe, they will knock you 3 up. Mates usually only want the odd pint in payment?. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted June 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 I’ll try the thick washer approach, I may have a short tube of the right size among my bike spares (cycling is my other love). Also, I might have a solution. Looking on fleabay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted June 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 Continued - looking on Fleabay I think I’ve found shorter Helicoils, if the photo is to be trusted, with about 8 threads instead of 11. Worth a shot for another fiver. Once I’ve sorted that, I’ll clean the surfaces again and try a new gasket without any sealant - it might hinder rather than help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted June 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 Seem to have solved my own problem here - I decided to mess with some inserts seeing as I’ve got a box full. I now understand that the Helicoils, being just a coil of loose threads can easily be trimmed down. Just seperated a couple of turns by forcing a small screw driver under them, then snipped them them off with side cutters. Voila, a correct length. Just waiting for the new studs to arrive now. Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted June 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 Well, some progress. Re threaded the water pump housing using Helicoils - a new skill! Fitted new studs and nuts, reconditioned water pump, put radiator back on. So far so good. I cleaned the surfaces up pretty well and didn’t use any sealant, just paper gasket. I have slight leak, which I don’t think is around the gasket but from the nut on the lower stud. Nuts tightened to about 12 lb/ft as per manual. I’m guessing that, as the lower stud goes right through into the water channel, its possible to get leakage through the threads and past the spring washer. I can’t decide weather to refit that stud with some sort of sealant, or just refit the nut with a plain washer before the spring washer and some sealant on it.Not sure what sealant - my local garage man said silicone sealant is useful on water gaskets with older cars, but I think that needs exposure to the air to make it set. All ideas welcome. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave the tram Posted July 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2021 Just to bring this thread to a proper close, all sorted now, running quietly and no leaks. EP services, as recommended were excellent and refurbished original pump promptly for £60 with lifetime guarantee. I mastered the use of Helicoils to fix the damaged threads before fitting new studs and nuts, including how to remove damaged ones, and how to clip a couple of turns off to shorten the coils. Then followed the good advice about Locktite gasket sealant to stop the slight leak through the threads. All good, cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68vitesse Posted July 8, 2021 Report Share Posted July 8, 2021 Another vote for EP services, sent them a Vitesse pump back with me fully refurbished well inside a week. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted July 10, 2021 Report Share Posted July 10, 2021 its good to know when a plan works and a good supplier is what we all need to know Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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