Indicator cancel - GT6 Mk3 - steering column alignment

[Jim-GT6]

4 hours ago, Ian Foster said:

Jim

Much discussion here about rack centering, but your original issue was the position of the indicator and headlamp stalks.

These are both attached to the outer part of the steering column, so surely this needs to be corrected first.

Once that is done and the inner  part of the column disconnected at the universal joint, you should be able to rotate it get the cancelling cam in the right position as others have suggested.

Ian

I appreciate both the inner and outer need rotating. I'll be doing both. The outer (tube, cowl and switch assy) was shifted into that wrong rotation by me, so it would match the inner column misalignment, and make the self cancel work correctly. I could have the cowl and switches level right now just by twisting it (I need to look at why that's a bit too easy to shift right now i.e. check the clamps), but if I just twisted it straight my self cancel wouldn't work. Right now I can have one or the other but not both

[Jim-GT6]

2 hours ago, chrishawley said:

It would appear that what started out as an issue with the trafficator has morphed into broader set of questions about how well the entire steering system is set up.

For the first step I think your logic is sound: Use track rod adjustment to get the best centering and re-asses from there. Snip off cable ties if need be (but probably not). Yup it's a mole grip job. Even if current toe-in is suspect as to dimension nonetheless try to preserve the current setting as at least it's 'known drivable'.  Mark datums with Tippex or such like, then equal turns of each track rod paying attention to the direction of rotation so that' it one in and one out.

Looking ahead: Yes, the lower steering joint is tricky to get at because it's tucked up inside the suspension turret. If one hasn't got Twizzle arms then it's a whole lot easier with the engine bay valance panel removed. The ruse is to rotate the steering column to put the pinch bolt in the best position so that a ring spanner can be got on both sides. Once one finds the sweet spot it's pretty easy.

More looking ahead: Where the impact clamp is concerned it's right to be attentive to the particulars because it's safety critical (I've had one work loose on the road and it's not a nice experience). But it's fairly foolproof. It's the tightness of the grub screw which really counts. If you're not so confident of guessimating 18lbf by spanner feel then a corroborating method is to tighten with an Allen key. With the short arm of the Allen key in the hex, tighten with the long arm untill the key begins to bend. That'll feel really tight but its the method stated in the GT6 ops manual.

And further ahead: If the vehicle doesn't self center or hold its line well then that's going to need looking at. Just for starters, are there any shims on any of the four mounting points of the lower suspension arms? None at all would raise suspicion that PO may have reassembled the suspension but without regard to setting up caster and camber. Are there any?

Thanks Chris. Tell me about it! I was only idly looking into how to correct a wonky indicator stalk. It's all great stuff though, and I am REALLY glad I posted the question. Learned heaps.

Your step-by-step for this particular situation is great, and matches the plan in my head, which is hugely reassuring. Thanks for the access tips. I can certainly work with 'tighten until Allen key flexes well'.

And to your last question, I had never looked to see if I had shims. I have now looked, and they are reassuringly multiple, and asymmetrically distributed ....

I'm going to need to add a further step to your list, I think. Need to decide what action for trunnions.

 

[Josef]

1 minute ago, Jim-GT6 said:

Tell me about it! I was only idly looking into how to correct a wonky indicator stalk. It's all great stuff though, and I am REALLY glad I posted the question. Learned heaps.

This Is The Way

You start off adjusting the fit of a bit of trim and then find yourself with a gearbox in pieces wondering how you got there

[Jim-GT6]

23 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

oil is used as the trunnion is an oil bath reservoir   so when topped up the threads are always submerged in OIL 

grease is static and once its pressured out the way i doesnt return 

yes there are more oily type greases around but the basic design needs OIL

why detour from the design specification , next the I know best brigade  will suggest using diesel as it has less E10 ....would you ????

do what the manual says and the car will perform as it says  on the lid  

Pete

 

Thanks Pete. Exactly the common view at the Shire Horse. I can't argue with that.

And then follows my inevitable nest question - how does one correct his?

Has anyone cleared them of grease to go back to spec? Is it a question of filling a new grease gun with oil and pushing oil through to flush, or do I need to strip it down?

[Iain T]

43 minutes ago, Jim-GT6 said:

My trunnions are greased. PO used grease instead of oil. I know it's meant to be oil, but I've not yet tackled sorting it. Not sure how serious it is to have grease instead of oil in your trunnions. Local mechanic who works on many similar cars tells me everyone just uses grease and he's always used grease, and never seen one that didn't. Not sure I'm happy with that. This came up at the club meet and it felt like everyone at the table uses oil, as designed.

Mine were greased it made a huge diffence using oil. 

I bought two Wanner guns off Fleabay. One for oil and the other grease. I used the oil gun and just pumped until oil seeped out. I know its better to strip and clean but it's too cold out now! I meant the trunnions not me... 

[NonMember]

I've also had cars where a PO had greased the trunnions. Iain's method of just pumping oil through until you stop seeing grease coming out will deal with the worst of it. You'll then have a mostly-oil bath which will gradually dissolve any hardened grease. Repeat the process at 6-monthly service intervals and all should be well.

[Iain T]

5 minutes ago, NonMember said:

Repeat the process at 6-monthly service intervals and all should be well.

My doctor said that! 

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Jim-GT6 said:

I really can't see flats on mine

Well I did say "should" 😛

I think all of my current fleet do have the flats but it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of cars don't. They're not very robust, not especially useful, and may have got deleted, especially if your rack's ever been replaced.

[Iain T]

1 hour ago, Jim-GT6 said:

Looks like mole grips in the past, given the lost paint. I really can't see flats on mine .....

Mine didn't either. I replaced the worn track rod ends but either the rolled thread or the tapped in the ends had slightly different thread pitches. This meant as I tried to spin the ends on it got progressively tighter as the threads bound. I just about had enough muscle to get the geometry about right. Bloody aftermarket products! 

[Ian Foster]

1 hour ago, Jim-GT6 said:

was shifted into that wrong rotation by me, so it would match the inner column misalignment,

Ah yes, I see now!

Plenty of advice to follow. It will all be wonderful when you have finished

Mine's about half a spline out on wheel centering, but the tracking is spot on so I'll live with it for now.

Ian

[Wagger]

3 hours ago, Jim-GT6 said:

I guess if I mark up the tie rods carefully, I could wind them fully out of the ball joints to do this check. Will certainly get some string involved if I do to make sure I'm not a full turn out when I put them back.

My trunnions are greased. PO used grease instead of oil. I know it's meant to be oil, but I've not yet tackled sorting it. Not sure how serious it is to have grease instead of oil in your trunnions. Local mechanic who works on many similar cars tells me everyone just uses grease and he's always used grease, and never seen one that didn't. Not sure I'm happy with that. This came up at the club meet and it felt like everyone at the table uses oil, as designed.

Just got back from visiting disabled brother.

You would be wise to mark your tie rods and check as advised. AND, yes, the trunnions should be oiled with Hypoid oil which is yellow metal friendly. Some greases and oils are not, and greases block the oilway. Grit sticks to grease and can act as grinding paste. In oil it should be more mobile and end up in the bottom of the trunnion.

[Jim-GT6]

21 minutes ago, Wagger said:

trunnions should be oiled with Hypoid oil

Thanks Wagger. I was wondering about the oil. I've got EP90, so half way there. Just need a second grease gun. I've got my Dad's Wanner Gun, but it's full or grease obviously!

To check the range of free movement, is it easy to disconnect the tie rod end from the wheel rather than wind out the tie rods? Figure I would run less risk of cocking up on reassembly?

I can check em both, but is there a way to predict which trunnion will be potentially running out of thread given the tightness is at full right lock? Would that indicate whether it's NS or OS? If I understand correctly, one trunnion winds in while the other winds out, so which one winds in when you turn right? Try saying that sentence fast! 

[Jim-GT6]

1 hour ago, Wagger said:

Just got back from visiting disabled brother.

You would be wise to mark your tie rods and check as advised. AND, yes, the trunnions should be oiled with Hypoid oil which is yellow metal friendly. Some greases and oils are not, and greases block the oilway. Grit sticks to grease and can act as grinding paste. In oil it should be more mobile and end up in the bottom of the trunnion.

Sorry, I see you said earlier that I could either wind out the tie-rods OR disconnect the tie rod end from wheel. I'll go with the latter. 👍

[Wagger]

51 minutes ago, Jim-GT6 said:

Sorry, I see you said earlier that I could either wind out the tie-rods OR disconnect the tie rod end from wheel. I'll go with the latter. 👍

If you have a ball joint snapper, that will be quite easy. You only need to make sure that the wheel moves left to right freely and to the correct angles. If you have grease nipples, unscrew them and just use a trigger type oil can to fill the trunnions, it will run in if you keep moving the wheel left to right. When full, replace the nipples.

If you unscrew the track rod ends, just undo the nuts two flats back, mark with chalk or crayon and use mole grips to unscrew the shaft. Refit by screwing back to the nut, then tighten the nut two flats.

Garages where I am are doing free tracking adjustments due to pot holes. You could be lucky with that too. Make sure thaht they share the adjustment on both track rod ends, or your good work could be undone.

I cannot remember which side has the left hand thread in the trunnion.

 

[Pete Lewis]

and if you dont have a puller   you get good access   a big hammer and you  give the arm a right good smack

clouting the hole makes the taper pin jump out so easily 

no boing bang tap    wheee !!!!    and   crack  a good  firm  wallop 

never hit the ball joint 

Pete

[dougbgt6]

Hi Jim,

Didn't realize this was you! How did I miss this thread?!! I have a ball joint splitter, somewhere. I'll dig it out. 

My GT6 was 5 years old when I bought it, the trunnions hadn't been oiled since it left the factory. Vertical link snapped shortly after purchase.

As said just pump oil through till only oil  comes out. When it gets a bit warmer worth taking the trunnions off and inspect the threads on the vertical link

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

Hey Doug   youre Slipping     Ha !!

youre supposed to look after your locals  not just drink the beer    

Pete

[dougbgt6]

[Wagger]

Pete will know without having to look it up, but I believe that the LH trunnion has the LH thread. It is impossible to swap them with the RH side.

Having said that, I have seen a Right and Left hand thread cut into a 'faceplate' on a wood turning lathe where the headstock is used from either side. It was done by an expert turner. He did it on a large lathe made by Dean, Smith and Grace.

If you can imagine two people starting a spiral climb up a cylindrical tower in opposite directions at the same gradient and rate, they meet every half turn on the opposite side. Only works with coarse threads.

If you try this with taps, you will end up wrecking it, we used to call it 'British Standard 'TWitworth' in our training school.

FWitworth was when an apprentice cut a thread with a BSF Taper tap followed by a BSW 2nd or plug tap. Quite a common occurence.

 

[Jim-GT6]

2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

clouting the hole makes the taper pin jump out so easily

I can picture clouting the Tie Rod upward, but clouting the 'hole'? I'm confused where to clout. What hole?

I'm hoping Doug might have some luck finding that ball joint splitter, although Wagger's method on the unscrew and mark option sounds very doable.

[Jim-GT6]

1 hour ago, dougbgt6 said:

Hi Jim,

Didn't realize this was you! How did I miss this thread?!! I have a ball joint splitter, somewhere. I'll dig it out. 

My GT6 was 5 years old when I bought it, the trunnions hadn't been oiled since it left the factory. Vertical link snapped shortly after purchase.

As said just pump oil through till only oil  comes out. When it gets a bit warmer worth taking the trunnions off and inspect the threads on the vertical link

Doug

Thanks Doug! Might come in handy. I figured I can't be over relying on my kindly AO.

New wheel nuts arrived btw. I'll return your spares! Thanks for the loan.

[Iain T]

27 minutes ago, Wagger said:

He did it on a large lathe made by Dean, Smith and Grace

A name from the past! An engineering company on the industrial estate I worked had one. Gone now the same as Asquith Butler etc etc

No, just checked both are still going but only refurb and maintenance no new machines. 

[Pete Lewis]

cant find the hole   you wont         well you strike firmly the end of the stg  arm  this gives the taper hole a shock

and the ball pin pops out its how its been done since god made apples 

pete

[Wagger]

I have found re-attaching them more of a pain. The Nylock rotates the ball and the damn thing will not lock without clamping it into the taper first. I keep a 'Non-Nyloc' nut handy now so that I can tighten it and refit the Nyloc afterwards.

[chrishawley]

As per photo (ok, that's a spit but same principle)

I'd add a caution: which is to ensure that the nyloc nut is fully removed before jumping the taper out. An annoying situation to be in is to partially undo the nyloc, then  jump the taper and then find that the the nyloc is seized on the lower, rusty, portion of the threads. Removal can then become quite destructive.

Wagger beat me to it on the refiiting tip of using a nice clean, loose running,  plain nut to draw/lock the taper together. Then nyloc and not forgetting washer.