Indicator cancel - GT6 Mk3 - steering column alignment

[Jim-GT6]

I did the first step of the guide for my problem before I ran out of light. Checking the rack position. After this first step, it goes on to describe exactly the steps shared in the chat above (with the rack known to be centred, next is to tackle steering column by separating column from steering joint at the rack, rotating and refitting).

To check the rack, it says start by turning the steering wheel lock to lock, putting put tape on the steering wheel at 6 o'clock with the rack at its extremes. Return the wheel two-and-a-bit turns from max to centre (as the GT6 is 4.25 turns lock to lock). When the tape is symmetric about the centre line, the rack is in the middle. It says the tapes should be around the 'twenty to four' position. Which they kind-of are. I put an extra bit of skinny tape at the top centre when the two marks are equal about the centre line. This can been seen in both photos.

I removed and refitted the steering wheel a while back to match the road wheels at straight ahead, so the image of the wheel in the expected position corresponds to straight ahead. It's interesting that the difference between the two photo positions looks very similar to the angle difference of the switch cowling, indicator and main beam stalks. The indicator is shown at rest position in both images, so it's pointing toward the cancel clip on the column (and out toward my leg). It's where it needs to be to work with the column as currently set.

It's interesting that the angle of change needed looks close, if not quite the same. I figure I'll try and centre the tape marks, via the tack rods, so the rack is in the middle, then go on to do the extra steps if bringing these tape marks to centre via adjustment of the track rods doesn't fully correct the indicator clip / column orientation.

I counted visible threads on the track rods out of interest. Currently very similar both sides. I reckon 12 on one, 14 the other.

I guess I could ignore the rack issue, but the steering gets VERY tight at full right lock, wanting to spring beck ¼ turn and needing a fair heft to hold the wheel at max rotation, and at the other lock, no such stress. Obviously it's not very often the car will need to move on full lock, but if stuck in a ditch and some welly applied applied, I expect something might suffer badly.

 

[Josef]

As I now know this is a thing that can be wrong I’m going to have to check at the weekend… Though my rack was replaced in about 2007 by a non-classic but pretty competent garage so fingers crossed.

[Wagger]

You need to put the rack where you want it, set the wheels straight ahead.  Disconnect the funny little u/j that attaches the steering shaft to the spline on the rack input shaft. Set that shaft so that the cancelling cam is in the correct place, then reconnect it to the rack.

You can then remove the steering wheel and centralise it and the stalks. It can be confusing. Did it on my Vitesse when changing the rack. Also necessary for those who swap the stalks left to right to match their 'Moderns'.

Hope that helps.

 

[Jim-GT6]

I had 20 mins while my dinner was cooking. What I think might happen when I adjust the rack via track rods ....

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Jim-GT6 said:

I guess I could ignore the rack issue, but the steering gets VERY tight at full right lock, wanting to spring beck ¼ turn and needing a fair heft to hold the wheel at max rotation, and at the other lock, no such stress. Obviously it's not very often the car will need to move on full lock, but if stuck in a ditch and some welly applied applied, I expect something might suffer badly.

Can you have someone turn the steering wheel while you watch the wheels? It might become clear if you actually see the mechanism work.

[Jim-GT6]

13 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Can you have someone turn the steering wheel while you watch the wheels? It might become clear if you actually see the mechanism work.

You are 100% right. Yes, I will force one of teenage sons. It’s worth the moaning. A good look from above would likely be very informative! 

[chrishawley]

1 hour ago, Jim-GT6 said:

but the steering gets VERY tight at full right lock,

That possibly opens up another little can or worms: If the steering movement is binding up at one end of the range of movement then one suspect is the trunnions. PO may have screwed on the trunnions on to the vertical links by too many turns so one or other 'runs out' of thread on the extremes of movement. Off the top of my head I can't remember which trunnion is left or right hand thread. Easiest thing is to unbolt both trunnions from the lower arms and it will be evident by finger movement if they are free running across the full range (and lubricated). If binding on extreme of range the the offending one can be backed off one thread (and lubricated!).

As for the centering it might be that the motto 'don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good' applies. A Spit/GT6 on absolute full lock is pretty much unsteerable and one just gets tyre scrub. So the very last few degrees of movement being precisely right isn't crucial as in practice one can never use it anyway.

[DanMi]

centring the rack is pretty easy set the wheel at exactly the central point as you have done. Then undo the lower uj and set the column so that the indicator clip is at 3 0clock (you will also see an elongated 0 on the end of the column which should be vertical. Next put the wheel on in the straight ahead position. The tracking will now need setting, get hold of a few axle stands or similar and tie on string put 1 pair either side of the car a bit away from the rear wheels (about 1 inch on my spit as the rear track is about 2 inches narrower than the front GT6 may be different) now set the tracking so that the string touches the front and back of the front tyre equally (actually front maybe a mm away but equal both sides.) Job done

[Jim-GT6]

1 hour ago, chrishawley said:

That possibly opens up another little can or worms: If the steering movement is binding up at one end of the range of movement then one suspect is the trunnions. PO may have screwed on the trunnions on to the vertical links by too many turns so one or other 'runs out' of thread on the extremes of movement. Off the top of my head I can't remember which trunnion is left or right hand thread. Easiest thing is to unbolt both trunnions from the lower arms and it will be evident by finger movement if they are free running across the full range (and lubricated). If binding on extreme of range the the offending one can be backed off one thread (and lubricated!).

As for the centering it might be that the motto 'don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good' applies. A Spit/GT6 on absolute full lock is pretty much unsteerable and one just gets tyre scrub. So the very last few degrees of movement being precisely right isn't crucial as in practice one can never use it anyway.

The tightness at one end was the point bothering me too Chris. If I do correct the rack via track rod adjustment, am I right that it will stress the trunnion that may be bottoming out less? It will be running out of thread and going tight earlier in the turn if the range on the rack is asymmetric.

[Jim-GT6]

For me, given the steering rack looks to be out of whack a bit from the tape test, trying to correct it first via the track rods is most appealing, as it might come close to correcting things indicator wise (apart from some questions over the outer column tube tightness / fixings and column safety clamp, which are now on my list to check).

As far as I can see, track rods adjustment only involves snipping the cable ties on the rubber gaiters (I guess these weren't finished this way originally for good reason), undoing the locknuts, carefully turning each track rod equal amounts (I assume with mole grips? - there appears to be no feature for turning them you could put a spanner on), nipping the lock nuts back up, then road-testing until the tapes are symmetric when straight ahead, remove and refit wheel. See how the controls cowl / indicator assy now need to be twisted to work, cancelling equally. Decide if it's okay.

If I need to go on from there, fair enough, but the 'on from there' involves the lower column / UJ interface (which is not as easy to get at as I pictured in my head - it's tucked under a bit of chassis) and the safety clamp (even though I am massively reassured by Pete's kind advice on how to judge this torque spec sensibly, in terms of 'fully hand-tight' and sensible feel / tools - I do appreciate that - when unsure it's tempting to fixate on numbers, only when you're confident on how to judge the critically of spec deviation and what okay FEELS like, can you be confident you're not doing the very wrong thing).

Folk at the start of this thread were advising not to go near the track rods unless it was necessary, aa it probably wasn't, and I can see why now, given the common cause being the rack / column relationship. However, I'm inclined to adjust the rack to centre via track rods first. Bad idea? It feels like a rare convergence of the right thing to do being the easiest thing to do.

I think I need to get my toe checked after anyway. I would LOVE to do this myself, and I think the method is probably all in the document Casper shared, but I don't have a surface. I'm on a gravel drive.

I'm told I will know if the toe is maintained on a road test by whether it self-centres well. It doesn't exactly self centre well now. It does sort of. It will centre fine from extremes, but it won't pull straight without a guiding hand. I figured that was just heavy steering? 

[Jim-GT6]

Standard wheels and tyres btw

[DanMi]

There is no need to cut the cable ties on the rack gaiters, the rack ends will simply rotate within the rubber. To set tracking as I said above the way I use is a length of string either side of the car between 2 pairs of axle stands at about mid wheel height, then adjust each side so that the front of the tyre is parallel to the string or about 1mm in at the front (toe in), just slacken the locknut and turn the rod with pliers/stilsons.

[NonMember]

8 hours ago, Jim-GT6 said:

I assume with mole grips? - there appears to be no feature for turning them you could put a spanner on

The track rods should have a couple of small flats near the thread end, which are supposed to take a small open spanner - possibly 3/8" or 7/16". In practice, the TREs are usually too stiff for that to work reliably and most people use mole grips.

[Wagger]

Don't know quite where you are with all of this, but you do need to ensure that the trunnions are not too tight on extreme lock. The simplest way of doing this is to have the front wheels off the ground, disconnect the steering arms by separating the ball joint or unscrewing it, then pull the wheel each way to check that it is free.

Correcting it is a pain as you have to separate the trunnion from the lower end of the suspension. If it is tight, you could risk breaking a trunnion.

All others have described how to correct the shaft alignment, so I won't duplicate that.

[Iain T]

I oiled my trunnions and the steering is noticeably lighter and smoother. Could lack of lub be causing the tightness? 

I have to rotate my steering shaft as playing around with the horn I noticed the cancelling bump is at 12 o/clock. I've been wanting to install a UJ (from Chris Witor?) so I'll do both at the same time. Simplish to do with the side valance removed. 

Wagger you got there first! 

[Wagger]

2 minutes ago, Iain T said:

I oiled my trunnions and my steering is noticeably lighter and smoother. Could lack of lub be causing the tightness? 

I have to rotate my steering shaft as playing around with the horn I noticed the cancelling bump is at 12 o/clock. I've been wanting to install a UJ (from Chris Witor?) so I'll do both at the same time. Simplish to do with the side valance removed. 

Wagger you got there first! 

Tis ok Ian. I know access is more tricky on the GT6 but it is frustrating when I could fix this in 2 hrs but so hard to communicate from afar. Too many adjustments on these cars cause the 'Same' result and cancel out so you end up with something that appears to work except in extremes.

[Iain T]

14 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

decent dimple in the primery would help clearance but they are tough and when i tried to add clearance it resisted quite strong attempts to dent the tube a little 

I trial fitted mine saw the problem and took it off warmed the offending tube and used a large diameter bar and a hammer make a scallop for clearance. It fitted but no clearance to the steering shaft so I moved the rack. Yes it is a juggling act making sure the uj rotates around the turret! 

[Iain T]

I may be wrong but I wouldn't get overfussed about getting the rack millimetre perfect. I obviously don't have the same steering wheel rotation left and right but 'tis life it ain't always possible. As I said I couldn't believe the reduction in steering wheel load after I oiled the trunnions. 

[Pete Lewis]

a word on UJ  fitting  

its not so critical on the triumph as the shaft angle is not that acute but on any steering shaft the UJ should be +  not x   

on some cars this can realy play grief with the straight ahead control as the uj does not rotate in a clean circle its more elliptical 

so getting the Cross piece accuarately at 90deg to the shaft can make some wild improvements 

dont just fit it any old way   

Pete 

[Iain T]

22 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

its not so critical on the triumph as the shaft angle is not that acute but on any steering shaft the UJ should be +  not x   

So steering straight and fit the UJ joint horizontal and vertical? 

[Ian Foster]

Jim

Much discussion here about rack centering, but your original issue was the position of the indicator and headlamp stalks.

These are both attached to the outer part of the steering column, so surely this needs to be corrected first.

Once that is done and the inner  part of the column disconnected at the universal joint, you should be able to rotate it get the cancelling cam in the right position as others have suggested.

Ian

[chrishawley]

It would appear that what started out as an issue with the trafficator has morphed into broader set of questions about how well the entire steering system is set up.

For the first step I think your logic is sound: Use track rod adjustment to get the best centering and re-asses from there. Snip off cable ties if need be (but probably not). Yup it's a mole grip job. Even if current toe-in is suspect as to dimension nonetheless try to preserve the current setting as at least it's 'known drivable'.  Mark datums with Tippex or such like, then equal turns of each track rod paying attention to the direction of rotation so that' it one in and one out.

Looking ahead: Yes, the lower steering joint is tricky to get at because it's tucked up inside the suspension turret. If one hasn't got Twizzle arms then it's a whole lot easier with the engine bay valance panel removed. The ruse is to rotate the steering column to put the pinch bolt in the best position so that a ring spanner can be got on both sides. Once one finds the sweet spot it's pretty easy.

More looking ahead: Where the impact clamp is concerned it's right to be attentive to the particulars because it's safety critical (I've had one work loose on the road and it's not a nice experience). But it's fairly foolproof. It's the tightness of the grub screw which really counts. If you're not so confident of guessimating 18lbf by spanner feel then a corroborating method is to tighten with an Allen key. With the short arm of the Allen key in the hex, tighten with the long arm untill the key begins to bend. That'll feel really tight but its the method stated in the GT6 ops manual.

And further ahead: If the vehicle doesn't self center or hold its line well then that's going to need looking at. Just for starters, are there any shims on any of the four mounting points of the lower suspension arms? None at all would raise suspicion that PO may have reassembled the suspension but without regard to setting up caster and camber. Are there any?

[Jim-GT6]

6 hours ago, NonMember said:

The track rods should have a couple of small flats near the thread end, which are supposed to take a small open spanner - possibly 3/8" or 7/16". In practice, the TREs are usually too stiff for that to work reliably and most people use mole grips.

Looks like mole grips in the past, given the lost paint. I really can't see flats on mine .....

 

[Jim-GT6]

5 hours ago, Wagger said:

Don't know quite where you are with all of this, but you do need to ensure that the trunnions are not too tight on extreme lock. The simplest way of doing this is to have the front wheels off the ground, disconnect the steering arms by separating the ball joint or unscrewing it, then pull the wheel each way to check that it is free.

Correcting it is a pain as you have to separate the trunnion from the lower end of the suspension. If it is tight, you could risk breaking a trunnion.

All others have described how to correct the shaft alignment, so I won't duplicate that.

I guess if I mark up the tie rods carefully, I could wind them fully out of the ball joints to do this check. Will certainly get some string involved if I do to make sure I'm not a full turn out when I put them back.

My trunnions are greased. PO used grease instead of oil. I know it's meant to be oil, but I've not yet tackled sorting it. Not sure how serious it is to have grease instead of oil in your trunnions. Local mechanic who works on many similar cars tells me everyone just uses grease and he's always used grease, and never seen one that didn't. Not sure I'm happy with that. This came up at the club meet and it felt like everyone at the table uses oil, as designed.

[Pete Lewis]

oil is used as the trunnion is an oil bath reservoir   so when topped up the threads are always submerged in OIL 

grease is static and once its pressured out the way i doesnt return 

yes there are more oily type greases around but the basic design needs OIL

why detour from the design specification , next the I know best brigade  will suggest using diesel as it has less E10 ....would you ????

do what the manual says and the car will perform as it says  on the lid  

Pete