GT6 mk3 High-Torque Starter - fitting tips

[Jim-GT6]

Hi all,

I have a shiny new high-torque starter on the kitchen top ready to go in. Just posting to see if anyone had any tips or watch-outs?

I went for the Paddock's one:

https://www.jamespaddock.co.uk/starter-motor-hi-torque-2

It's a Wosp unit, with the mount plate supplied drilled with an array to allow multiple rational mount positions. Unused holes are covered over by a blanking plate between starter gearbox and mount plate, that has just a pair of holes. It has an on-board solenoid, meaning you have the option to bypass the bulkhead solenoid and go via starter solenoid instead, or keep bulkhead solenoid and add the included jumper wire to the starter, bypassing the onboard solenoid.

I'm planning to go with the jumper wire bypass option and keep the bulkhead solenoid in circuit. Thinking I can bypass the original solenoid later if it develops a problem.

I offered it up and chose to move the rotation one hole. Brings the motor lump pretty horizontal, with terminal accessible from top, and I think it will create roughly equal clearance starter / chassis, and starter / steering column. Looks like quite a bit of space available on my GT6 anyway, so don't think it will be close to anything. The high torque starters are smaller, and a different shape, and the shape looks to suit the space well.

I've had a look, and I THINK I can get to the rear side of the starter fixings without removing the tunnel cover. I've tried and can just about get a stubby spanner on the back side of the top bolt (rear side of bell housing), and I think I'll be able to get to the back side of the bottom one from the underside. I have a standard exhaust, which might help?

I watched a Utoob of a chap fitting a high torque starter to a GT6. He didn't like the price of the recommended one (and I can very well understand why! ouch), so he went for something from a Subaru or similar. He then had to check the engagement and clearance pinion to fly wheel via paint on the pinion (if pinion is the right term) run, remove, inspect, measure. He then had to have a new spacer plate machined to make the Subaru starter fit. I don't know if the saving of using a different starter option worked out well for him in terms of cost and hassle! 

Question is - if I reuse the spacer plate already on the car, is it the case that I should expect the Wosp unit will then have correct amount of engagement and clearance to fly wheel, or do I need to measure things first? I guess I could ask Paddocks this question.

I ploughed on into buying the high torque unit without polling opinion here (possibly unwise), and I suspect some will feel I've just blown a bunch of unnecessary cash. You might be right. I ummmed and arrred. The GT6 is my daily driver. I have no garage, and it needs to start at 7am in January. I suspect that a fully standard system with everything in tip-top shape might deliver the reliability I need, but to do that, I think I'd end up replacing many associated parts (battery, alternator...) as they are both only just up to the job for winter night time driving, wipers, dipped beam, heater fan, stereo brings running voltage at battery down close to battery voltage. i.e., only just maintaining. 28A alternator and 330 CCA battery both feel rather under spec. Or only just up to task. There are 52A options and same type of battery with 520 CCA that I might move to as and when they need changing. But not now.

I've gone more with the idea that gradually uprating parts as they are needed for cold start, and hot running in blistering summer traffic jams for that matter, will add some extra capacity for everything when weather extremes present a challenge.

[Pete Lewis]

fitted one to my Vit6 with a631 manifold  that can get things a bit close but with a  std mani  you are fine 

seem to remember you must keep the original spacer 

battery is not a problem these motors take so little load compared to the bendix unit it will fling the engine over with very little in the battery 

you will be amazed how much quicker these are 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

You may not need a spacer; take careful measurements before fitting just in case. Here are two photos I took of mine which were trial fitted to a spare GT6 engine off the car - you can see that with any kind of spacer the Bendix would never have moved far enough forward to engage the flywheel. You obviously don't want it hitting the flywheel when disengaged but it has to engage when required, so check if any kind of spacer is required. One other small point; in our cars these often have to be fitted upside down from their original intended fitment, due to the solenoid unit hitting the exhaust - if this is the case here check for any small drain holes that would be in the lower side, but are now on the top, and block them with sealer or a grommet. I didn't and the starter filled with water and rusted very badly very quickly.

 

 

[Jim-GT6]

1 minute ago, Pete Lewis said:

fitted one to my Vit6 with a631 manifold  that can get things a bit close but with a  std mani  you are fine 

seem to remember you must keep the original spacer 

battery is not a problem these motors take so little load compared to the bendix unit it will fling the engine over with very little in the battery 

you will be amazed how much quicker these are 

Pete

Thanks Pete! You are a legend. You've been helping so much on my steering questions!

I figured the same - battery is in very good health, but the standard starter is a big battery demand for any battery when it's minus 3 degrees. Figured the high torque option would be way more robust for very cold conditions when the voltage is low.

I thought same about reuse of the standard spacer. Might call Paddocks to confirm / see if they know.

[Jim-GT6]

2 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

check for any small drain holes that would be in the lower side, but are now on the top, and block them with sealer or a grommet.

Thanks Colin. Wouldn't have thought to check that.

The photo shows what will be the top view. Looks rather like yours. Couple of rubber bungs there. Nothing on the other side. I would have thought they'd have put the labels on the 'top', meaning this orientation would be the intended one, but perhaps not. I'll certainly make sure I don't lose the bungs!

I don't have a spare engine knocking about to check mine with  Your pictures certainly show the issue for that starter. It's not exactly the same as mine, but similar.

Paddocks aren't answering the phone. Hope I catch them before 4pm.

 

[Iain T]

Do you need a spacer with the club supplied hi-torque? 

Iain 

[Jim-GT6]

Paddock's think it's a straight swap in place of the original, meaning just change the starter and leave any spacers in place.

The fact the GT6 employs a spacer as standard to make the starter offset correct suggests to me that the distance might be dictated by a standard / common throw distance of starters perhaps? The new starter fits many many other cars. I would think those cars may or may not have spacers depending on whether they need them to match a common starter spec. If that's so, you'd expect to have to reuse any (standard) spacers you find on any car. Or at least on any car on the list of cars it claims to fit?

Of course that line of thinking may be complete twaddle.

Photo's of Colin's absent spacer suggest that reasoning is unsound. 

[Steve P]

I did,tried without and it made a horrible noise.

The first one i fitted to my Vitesse died after a few years,started turning the engine over slower than a normal one,haven`t taken it apart yet but it could well be water ingress as Colin said, because it was fitted with the solenoid at the top.

Steve

[Jim-GT6]

Looks like I'll be measuring. I expect it should be quite easy to tell by doing a measure from mount surface to flywheel teeth. The spacer in question is pretty chunky, so it will hopefully be obvious if it's needed once I know the distance. Mine starter does look a lot like Colin's.

Ingress issues seem to be a common experience ....  🤔

[Colin Lindsay]

As you can see, mine was amazingly rusty and that was only a year of use. All had to be dismantled, cleaned and greased, but after that with the hole sealed it lasted fifteen years or more.

[Iain T]

32 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

As you can see, mine was amazingly rusty and that was only a year of use.

Colin, did it stop working or just not as powerful? I have a WOSP fitted by the PO and it doesn't seem to turn over that well and makes a hell of a clatter. When I took the engine out the starter ring looked fine so it's engaging OK. 

Iain 

[Pete Lewis]

we fitted a genuine exchange starter from VW for a neighbours skoda  it lasted a month and the pinion fell off and jammed the torque converter 

one of the experiences of a nice box and paint job but it had seen a previous life on Titanic  

vw did replace it    but they can be rusty and as bad as poosible out the box 

youre buying new so that should be all shiny 

on the Vit6 was from club shop

i made a heat shield to divert heat from the rather close 631 

but it lasted 10 years then i sold the car 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

It just stopped, Iain. The Herald solenoid clicked but no starter. The starter would not spin so wouldn't engage. On removal water literally poured out, so it all had to be cleaned up, derusted and greased, after which it worked perfectly until the car was sold in 2021. Those photos are dated 2008, it was fitted in either 2006 or 2007 so 14 years of use. Here's the offending drain hole that let water in, rather than out, due to being upside down....

 

[Jim-GT6]

2 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Here's the offending drain hole that let water in,

That hole is exactly the same on mine! It has a rubber bung in it though. Did yours fall out? I guess I might be wise to put silicone around it once I know all is well.

[Ian Foster]

Jim

I have a Power-lite unit on my Mk2, which I fitted after the engine rebuild. I had previously cobbled together two Lucas starters and felt it/they had probably had a good innings at 185k miles and it was time for a change.

Mine is fitted with the standard spacer.

I have kept the original starter solenoid but now just use it as connection point for the starter main feed and starter solenoid, after it started giving problems (probably burnt connections internally). I have a NOS replacement but haven't fitted yet.

Good luck if you manage to access both fixing nuts. I couldn't so had to take the tunnel out again (whoopee!)

Just be aware that you are meshing with the non-tapered side of the flywheel teeth, so there is a possibility that you might get the occasional clash, although I don't think this is too much of an issue. 

Hope it goes well.

Ian

[Pete Lewis]

on most modern and many pre engaged the solenoid  indexes the pinion 1/2 tooth every time its fire up so as the teeth on the pinion are chamfered 

its not supposed to give you a tooth gnashing it shouldnt fire the motor till its fully engaged 

Pete

[Jim-GT6]

5 minutes ago, Ian Foster said:

I couldn't so had to take the tunnel out again (whoopee!)

😣

I'll allow more time then! Oh well. Another chance to check the gearbox oil.

[Iain T]

Oh dear I've got my worry beads out again...... Every time I crank the starter my classic car mate cringes. The noise isn't a non meshing mechanical sound but that of a electric motor nasty whine. As I have a 631 exhaust it's a bas***d to get at. 

Iain 

[Iain T]

1 minute ago, Jim-GT6 said:

I'll allow more time then! Oh well. Another chance to check the gearbox oil.

I've just duct taped mine down! I've taken it off so many times I got fed up finding all the fixings! 

[Jim-GT6]

WOSP have a useless website for technical info. I can't confidently identify which of their starters I've got, as the part numbers on the box aren't listed on the website, neither is my car, and all the starters have one common fitting guide to download. Same as the one in the box. No data sheets. Not very impressed. 

This unit is designed as Pete describes. The leading edges of the gear teeth are chamfered two ways, and the helix is driven in by a spring with a cap on. I think. I read this prevents any clash, but I can't remember where. The faces of the flywheel teeth are flat though, and you could hit them wrong. I guess you might get a single click and need to retry if it needed to tick on one half tooth? It may not need to though, as I could easily imagine the torque applied to the gear through the spring cap as the unit advances and the spring is compress and twisted, could slide it round enough to slip past the leading edge.

[Peter Truman]

Out of interest I went the USA Paul Teglizer route and used an Isuzu Trooper Hi Torque route the spacer had to be reduced to half thickness otherwise all fitted OK the advantage was cost around $100 reco unit direct from the rebuilder a reputable Co here, supplier hand delivered to me and explained what reco meant, a virtual dismantle and replace any wearable parts, also 18 month warranty, with the limited use the car gets it'll last a lifetime.

Ref bypassing the old solenoid I did that when I fitted the Hi Torque starter BUT then changed back to using it as someone mentioned to me I was putting the full start load onto the ignition switch where as using the old solenoid meant that the load was as per original design.

[Jim-GT6]

Update on the outcome: job done and it went more soothly than I can believe! Delighted.

Up on ramps, as I hoped I may stand a chance of getting to the lower starter bolt from below. Knew I may need to remove tunnel cover if not. Once up, took off the cardboard side-valance rear bolts, and pulled the valance away without undoing the front mounts at radiator. As they're flexible, they're easy to manoeuvre. Pulled away with a bend and a waggle. They aren't cardboard I know, but what, fibre board perhaps? Anyway I'm a fan. Was tempted to look at aluminium, but don't expect you can bend and waggle the lovely looking aluminium ones as easily.

With the car higher up and the valance out of the way, I could see that I could actually get to both top and bottom fixings from where I was, not even needing to go from below, with a 9/16 stubby spanner on the rear side, and socket on the front. Disconnect the battery. Starter was off in a matter of minutes. Flywheel teeth looked nice and clean and sharp. Old starter not so good. May look inside one day.

Needed to know if I needed the spacer(s). Spec. given as a toleranced clearance, rather than mesh.

Distance from starter mount surface to closest face of flywheel teeth (distance to flywheel). 18.2mm

Distance from starter mount-surface to top edge of pinion (amount it sticks out) - I measured to the very top of the pinion, including the tooth chamfer i.e. the end face of the pinion gear, not the extent of the tooth face width, and ignoring the protruding stub of starter shaft: 23.3mm

Spacer thickness: 10.5mm (the actual spacer thickness, which excludes the raised ring, as that mates into the hole)

There were also two thin shim plates between the beefy spacer and the mount surface. Flat. Same shape as the beefy one. 0.5mm thick (each)

Position without any spacer: pinion would be in 5.1mm interference at rest.

With just beefy spacer, in 5.4mm clearance.

Haynes states the clearance needs to be 2.4mm to 4.0mm. 

It was thankfully obvious that I needed the spacer, and that I didn't need the additional two shim spacers, as the clearance is a tad more than required with the beefy spacer alone. I say 'thankfully' obvious, as worst case is to be so much between-two-stalls that neither is gonna work.

I'm pretty relaxed about the 1.4mm additional clearance, particularly as the standard starter is referenced to the chamfered face of the fly-wheel, resulting in less contact face width (the old starter pinion has chamfers on it as well, so there are two chamfers reducing the face contact width when the pinion comes in from the back). The new one comes in from the front and there is no chamfer on front face of flywheel, so I've probably got more face-width mesh AND more clearance than the standard starter would allow. The chamfers are each a good couple if mil. I've got one less chamfer.

Kept the bulkhead solenoid in circuit, and used the supplied jumper wire between starter main terminal and the on-board solenoid socket (effectively disabling the onboard solenoid I guess). Nuts were tight all the way off, so wire brush and copper slip. Hole in original ring-terminal on the cable was a fraction too small for the new starter post, and a replacement that did fit was in the kit. Had plenty of cable, so cut off the old ring terminal end, plus a bit, to get back to fresh copper, stripped and fitted supplied ring terminal, including heat shrink. Managed with a lighter. I have no power out there. One Father's Day I'll ask for a battery powered heat gun. Vaseline on all the connectors. 

The cable could so easily end up pressed against the exhaust manifold if not routed to bend the right way, but it's so chunky you can get it to a happy shape and it'll stay.

I'd previously rotated the starter mount plate one hole from a first looksee, and that proved worthwhile. The lump is now sat pretty equidistance between chassis and steering column. A good 30mm clearance above and below.

Reconnect battery.

"fwi-fwi-vroooommmm!". It sounds like a modern, and it sounds way more refined!

The three sounds I could expect before were either: "CRANGWAARGARRGGARRRZRAFFERGRAAH!!!!!!!!!!!", or "click ..............", or "berrrrrrrrwumm .........berrrrrrrrrrrwumm ....berrwumm ....berrrrrwumm ....berwum..berwum.. vroooommmm!".

I'm going to see if I can upload a video capturing the new audio here. Not sure if I can.

Once I knew it was all good, thanks to the experience of Colin and Steve, I put a generous glob of thick silicone sealant over the rubber grommets that are uppermost on the starter. It will bond them in, and seal them far better (they don't feel that tight in there). Maybe it will give me the same 14 years of service as Colin's did, without the water ingress rebuild! Thanks both for the tip. Fingers crossed. I've got some Captain Tolly's sealant too (which I bought thanks to another tip from another Steve at the club) to stop my window seals leaking, but figured that would be a bad idea. It's super-low viscosity as it's designed to find cracks and gaps by capillary. It would likely work its way all inside the starter. Thick jam stuff seals over without penetrating.

So .... if you have got a GT6 Mk3, with a standard exhaust manifold, you MIGHT well be able to do this without removing the tunnel cover, or even jacking it up. Get the engine valance out of the way. Stubby 9/16 spanner on the rear, and a couple of socket extension lengths (or another spanner) will do the front side, all from the engine bay. 

I can't believe how well it went. There is usually SOMETHING that goes bad, or something you come away knowing you've buggered, but not this time. Two hours end-to-end. Well three. Including two tea breaks because I couldn't believe how quickly I'd got to milestones! Copper slip, vaseline, silicone sealant, new crimps and connectors, known clearance that's pretty-well to spec. Would have always worried, if I hadn't measured, that the engagement could be tiny. Just a couple of mm mesh would probably work fine and sound fine at first, but wear the edge of the flywheel teeth and put a lot more radial load on the starter shaft / bearings. 

Thanks everyone so much! 😃

I mean even the weather was good. Jeeeez. Might go and bet on a horse or something.

[johny]

Well done, but dont start thinking all jobs are going to go like that - you can easily get lulled into a false sense of your own ability😁 

[Jim-GT6]

20 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

I was putting the full start load onto the ignition switch where as using the old solenoid meant that the load was as per original design

Hi Peter,

Sounds like you've got it well sorted for a good deal. I'm not sure I share your friend's worry about the ignition switch. I think it's the same difference, or, swings and roundabouts. As long as when the ignition wire is connected the onboard solenoid you take off the jumper wire, it's the same as the standard setup. Ignition wire to solenoid. Either bulkhead or onboard starter. With the jumper wire and bulkhead solenoid option (as we've both gone for) there is the possibility either one of the two solenoids may fail, and stop things working. So two potential failure points instead of one. I think ....

I wanted to keep things simple on the first pass, so opted to leave both active.

Easy to switch if the need arises.

[Jim-GT6]

6 minutes ago, johny said:

Well done, but dont start thinking all jobs are going to go like that - you can easily get lulled into a false sense of your own ability😁 

I'm quite keenly ware of my own limitations 🤤

That's why this is so noteworthy. One in a row! 😂