Herald 13/60 Resto + Auto Conversion

[Pete Lewis]

the very front two are just one metal no rubber here .

these two in the front rigger are location and have little adjustment one rubber on all others with as many spacers as needed to align 50 yr wonky body with 50yr wonky body

when refitting the body its well worth earth bonding all body and chassis sections with a decent earth wire ,front to back .

does  save a lot of voltage loss to the bonnet and tail lamps

Pete

Edited January 9 by Pete Lewis

[Richeee]

Thank you loads for the replies and advice. Its all part of a jigsaw of information.

Hopefully a step forward today. 

At the end of the day achieved a decent gap to the bulkhead. 

There are many factors to take into consideration and things will change as i re skin doors and try to allign with bonnet and rear tub but a glimmer of light.

There were a couple of comments re rotating the bulkhead forward at top by shimming the rear more than the front. Yesterday my bulkhead seemed to want to sit naturally with two shims at front and 1 at the rear. 

So today removed the four side bolts just let the bulkhead have 1 each at the front and pulled it fully forward on the two front holes. Ignoring the other 4 bolts.

Then nipped these down and placed spacers as required to the others.

1 rubber at the front external corners and a packer and rubber at the rear corners.

This obviously took the center of the bulkhead forward. Left the other four bolts out. They will need redrilling anyway once the doors and tubs are on and gone up and down forwards and back.

So with my bonnet furthest back and the bulkead slightly rotated it will fit. Tbh would like the bonnet to have say 10mm or so play backwards incase needed later on but that can be addressed later.

The new arches touch the bulkhead and so prevent it closing smootly with out a bit of twisting so will need shortening. 

Photos taken from under bonnet looking up.

Decided to remove the near side inner arches and because only pop rivetted and bolted fairly easy to do, and remove 20mm. Because the arch is about about 45° Angle here it will hopefully be about 10mm clearance. 

Next job will be to refit and see if enough gap. 

Thanks again for all the multiple years advice, and hard gained knowledge. 

To be continued.

 

 

[Dick Twitchen]

3 hours ago, Richeee said:

things will change as i re skin doors

For what it's worth following my Resettlement Course at Contour Autocraft some 17 years ago I would recommend re-skinning the doors first then build/fit around those.  This is most appropriate when it comes to sills and the B Post.  It was too late for me by then!

Dick  

[Richeee]

Managed to grab a few hours today after a couple of days doing other stuff.   

Present arrived from James Paddock.

As mentioned by Dick and others the doors are crucial.  So after fiddling with the bonnet and bulkhead will progress with the doors.

My door bottoms are not terrible and to some of you no sweat and you may think i am wasting money.   But never having done doors before. The complicated shape required and on closer inspection began to see a myriad of pinholes decided to bite the bullet.

Wont use all the panels but will provide an invaluable source.

Back to the bonnet. 

Decided to as i mentioned previously to adjust the push pull stays so it at least had 10mm of movement after i fixed its final position to the bulkhead. If im right 5mm either end gives me 10mm.

Refitted the inner arches and b&%#@r me if they dont still clash with the bulkhead. So had to go through the process and cut another to cut another 20mm off the offside. Of course i had already cut the nearside to 20mm. So both to do again.

My old case of measure once cut twice or 4 times now for me.

Offside now fits pretty good. Quite pleased.   

 But the nearside wing and arch still clash with the side of the bulkhead.

Time coming for a bit of persuasion to spread the wing.

Its probably the way the flange on the bonnet side and wing top meet. 

A bittle of gentle brute force. Bit by bit.......

To be continued.

 

 

 

[Richeee]

Managed a bit more yesterday.

First job was to fire up the 2 heaters and pop a pasty on the heater tray for lunch. Then down to work.

From my parts car removed the bonnet catches and plates so that i can fix my bonnet down. Quite mucky and into wd40 they went. Theres 2 or 3bsets squirreled away in my garage roof somewhere but these will do for trial fitting. 

The previous days problem was the new inner arches were clashing with the bulkhead.  I had cut back each by 20mm thinking from my measurements that this would be enough. But it was not and had to cut back another 20mm off each. 

This done and with careful reassembly was able to push the offside wing out a bit so that if missed the bulkhead on the outside as it descends.  The little roller on the catch just touching the skid plate as it descends. 

The bonnet i am now pleased with. Cleco's removed and  Its still only pop rivetted together at this stage as the rest of the body shell and doors are positioned.

The bulkhead is packed with 1 horeshoe spacer an the very front. 

1 rubber at the front side and a rubber plus steel packer at the rear.

The reat tub which was roughly placed was manhandled on to position.    From the parts car i took a measurement from across the door opening in the middle, and am using this to initially place the tub into position. Trying to line things up was physically tough. Almost like a feat of endurance. Lying on cold floor. Even with heaters going and lying on cardboard. Up down , jumping on it to bed down. Bit of body twist as not been on the chassis for at least 20 years. Maybe 30. Then forget something.   But getting there.

Rear tub not fully positioned as my at least 20 year old body fixing kit was as i suspected had bits missing. It also came with the basket place. And im having difficulties with the threaded holes on the two rear boot floor outriggers.  So have ordered a new fitting kit.

Questions:   If anybody could help. 

There are two support brackets inboard, just in front of the rear axle by the heel board. 1 either side of the tunnel.  I presume these just have an isolator pad under. 

Any body know the thread size of the two rear crossmember mounting holes above the spring. And similarly the 4 , 2 either side of the back of the boot floor outriggers.

Where the the bulhead and the tub meet is the main body joint. Between the two is a rubber joint. 

Below this appears to be another rubber strip. Presumably this gets packed using suitable material until its fully supported. At present with two packers under the rear of the tub , 1 strip of thin jointing rubber would not be adequate.

Thankyou.

 

To be continued. 

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

we made some simple wooden spars with a slot in each end to slot over the seal flange to make sure the door gap 

did not close up on tightening the rear tub 

i recommend a pair of solid mounts on the diff cross member  

you dont want the tubs to shift  at the first speed hump which with rubbers all round has no positive fixing

do have a think about a good wire earth bond between all sections while it in bits 

saves a lot of volt drop on tail lamps etc .

Pete

 

[Richeee]

Spent the afternoon lying on another cold concrete floor. Even though both heaters were running.

Remind me,  why this is an enjoyable hobby.  Things did not want to go right.

Another fixing kit turned up. It was cheap.  No plates to go in body mounts or nuts for the bolts. Generally dissapointed. 

   But with it and my original kit was able to progress. Or rather i didnt. 

Just could not get my rear tub to site any sense on the mounting holes. As if whole dody needed to rotate on the right forward. But then i get losing the door gap dimensions i measured several times off my donor car.   Yes i do need to rebuild my doors asap. 

In the end i self tapped drilled the two parts together at the kick plates.  Can see that the far side looks like it wants to come foward. But the door opening is same both sides.

This was at the dimension i had measured off my parts car. I measued the doors at the top swage line and they were 1120.  And on restoration car at the same point i have 1130 beteeen bonnet and rear wing. This would allow for 5mm gap. 

I totally realise it depends on my actual doors.

There has been a lot of work on my car and it was a collection of tubs etc.

Next job when i have thawed out will be to remove all body and bulkhead fixings.  Leave the two parts fixed together and start again. I was attempting to have two main panels loosely bolted before introducing the doors. The two axle locating points were miles off. So will start with them (solid mounts) and the front bulkhead fixings only. All others can follow from there.

To be continued.

 

[Peter Truman]

After gapping the doors Don't forget to look at how the body aligns with the rear wheels I did all that and found the body was pulled to one side ie the outside of the tyres was slightly inboard on the drivers side and directly vertical with the wheel arch on the N/S or passengers ie 1/2in skew so I had to slide the body over 1/4in to centralise it! I also used screws on the outside of the front to rear body tubs to initially align the two tubs and door gaps.

[Richeee]

Thank you. Will check that as well. 

[Richeee]

Started todays efforts by tidying all the tools away and sweeping the floor. The idea was for organised logical thinking.    That was the idea anyway.

Following on from last session had come to the conclusion that what i was doing was not working.  So i suppose that is progress in a way.

The bulkhead and tub were now fixed in the set dimension i am trying to achieve as a datum at this point by screws in the treadplates.

I remove all body mount fixings and just concentrated on the 2 at the front of the bulkhead and the two on the rear axle crossmember.

Had to ease 3 of the holes.   I butchered a bit of bodywork on 1 rear one . Whoops. A bit of repair work required. 

The other side was sot on.

At the front just had to ease minor bit. But seems good and symetrical.

The rear outrigger bolts fitted. Well plenty of play to these.

Seems to be all good with wheel clearance equal both sides and bonnet gap ok.   Also managed to trial fit some ot the side body mounts. These will be ok

 When i take apart again to restore the chassis and running gear will need to weld plates on the body mounts and re drill with a hole saw. I will need to carefully measure and record where.

One persistent problem is that the back of the bulkhead floor is not straight. It tapers in both sides.

You can see from this red string line. Almost as if the rear of the bulkhead is distorted. Which it might well be. Will be difficult to get the srews / bolts in to fix the two floor edges together.  May need to add a strip in to extend the trailing floor edges of the bulk head at some point. 

Anyway am happy that i can nip up the body bolts and work on the doors next. And see what delights that brings. 

Thanks for all advice so far. 

To be continued.

 

[Pete Lewis]

when we did our chassis and tub repairs we found the two front sized location holes in the bulkheads brackets

had been opened up to a 3/4" hole and penny washer  by some previous work in its life .

so this gave more adjustment but not the best solution to gaps .

with an ever movable target .

and we also added fixed bolts through  the tread plates to stop any closing up for good 

Pete

Edited January 18 by Pete Lewis

[Richeee]

Progress.  

Managed to assemble the bonnet, bulhead and rear tub, and joint them with bolts to the chassis.  Happy with allignment and bonnet to bulkhead gap.  Also have the measurement i was hoping for middle of the door opening.

Of course as soon  as i offer up a reskinned door it may well be coming apart again. But thats another time.  At the moment have screwed the bulkhead to floor joint.

 

Used a piece of timber as a persuader to open up the rear bulkhead floor where it had the tendency to twist in.

Progress.

Right. Next job doors. 

These i dismantled and took the skins of in May 22. 

I purchased a door skin off Guy, at Beaulieu autojumble the same year and recently a door bottom.

All i have to do now is join them together.  First time on a door for myself. But up for it.

Tbh the door bottom not that bad but with the complicated curves gecided a new bottom would make things eaiser.

Need to file off some metal where the door skin is brazed on by the 1/4 light.

Small repair to flange by door handle.

And need to also learn the hammer and dolly tricks of 'on and off' dolly to repair a few minor dents where the door bottom has it looks been shut on the seat belt a few times

There is some tearing / cracking to the metal where it joins the hinge reinforcement plates.

Will weld along here to reinforce between the two as well as repairing cracks.

Got to go in garage foof to get the brace that goes in the door. From what i can remember from 18 months ago this was srewed or bolted to the bottom of the door. , but how is fixed at the top or does ot just clip under window seal flange.?

Can it pe put in after the skin is on. ?

Dont believe it fixes to the skin. Is it just pushed up against it? Any packer or soft foam in between?

Thanks.

To be continued.

 

Edited January 21 by Richeee

[Richeee]

May have answered my own question by looking at old photos of the strip down and reinforcing brace.

Thanks

[Richeee]

Todays tale is of frustration but getting there at the end.

Drivers door:

First off was cracking to the metal around the bolt holes where the hinge bolts on. So so using the hinge plate which i did up tight with a bolt , first hammed the metal in. Ground it a bit and welded.

My welds today were like the curates egg. Good in parts, some welds i thought i was gods gift, then the next a series of complete rubbish as the photos will show. Oh well battled on.

In side decided to weld the hinge plate to the door frame to give moor support and hopefully stop the tearing.

Next was the bottom corner with the complex curves.

Not helped by my repair panel not matching up to the curves as on the door. So had to cut bits out and jig saw together.

After much grinding, cutting and welding managed to al least have new metal welded to old metal.

At this point dark  cold and hungry so slapped some primer on.

Re attack tomorrow. Dressing the welds and flanges. Have a nice steel angle i can use to check the bottom flange is straight and smooth.

To be continued.

 

Edited January 22 by Richeee

[Richeee]

Need some avdice and  the knowledge  of others who have fitted door skins before.

Continued with door repairs.  Noticed the corner i fitted yesterday was too short and was not in line with the rest of the bottom flange so had to add a bit on.  Might have to cut a bit off this later but will see.

Also repaired around the guarter light screw hole , think that is what it is ,on the front of the door frame. 

Repaired the flange by the door handle and some cracking by the rear of the quarter light.

This hopefully is last of repairs to door frame.

Rummaged in the roof for the skin support bracket which eventually found.

Question?

there is hessian acting as a soft joint. Its not too bad a condition but was thinking what else i could use.  The thought of the carpet that i am working on came to mind. About the right thickness. ?

Trialled fitted before it was coated in rust convertor. 

Next i trial fitted the skin to the frame to see the problems i might have.

The major one is that at the hinge ends it appears to short.   If i clip it ovrer the top it wont reach the bottom. And vice versa if i start with the top.  Also.if i fit over the top first the swage lines dont line up on the frame to the skin. But if i clip the bottom first it does

There is a rolled flange on the skin. In my mind i need to fit from the bottom up as the swage lines correspond and im thinking the top flange is too tight. 

At present i have left as is to raid your brains.  Advice or anecdotes please?

So carried on and zinc phosphate'd the door internals.

To be continued.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23 by Richeee

[Richeee]

 Managed to get the door skin to fit.

First off pur the right or offside with near side left of a rhd car sat in drivers seat looking forward.  Tbh not really matter for this exercise. End to end.

Any way lined up the swage contours and marked with duck tape.

When i compared the bottoms of the doors the drivers side was 5mm longer. As the skin fitted one end and not the other took a taper piece off. 5mm to nothing along the door.

With a minor trim around the quarter light to the new skin , the skin now fits.

So well pleased. 

Not fitting the skin for a day or so as will have more coats internally. Also have to drill a drain hole and put the captive plates for the hinge bolts back in. Oh and the strengther. 

Bound to forget something when i do put it on

Started now to attack the 2nd door frame. In a worse condition. Also need to prder a door skin. Must make sure i get the right side. No i mean left. If you get my drift.

To be continued.

 

 

 

[Richeee]

Couple of days off but did grab a few hours this afternoon.

The new skin I ordered from Fitchet's arrived sat morning.

This today was rubbed over with course paper before wiping with thinners and acid etch applied.

The left hand door dottom was replaced including both radius's. 

This was a fiddly process with welding and grinding. Followed by straightening out and cutting the excess off as per the right side.

Took one of my JSP mask filters apart to see the muck in it. Considerable. 

And of course i could not resist offering a door frame to give myself a little boost.

Have ordered some Valencia Blue from the shop to brush inside the doors before i put the skins on.  Maybe not be totally necessary but too late later on if i can peer in from the glass chanel and wish i had done it. 

To be continued.

[Richeee]

Whilst waiting for the paint from the shop to arrive have carried on sortimg out the roof for hinges and other door gear. It is easy to forgot what you have squirreled away.

 

Not sure how many quaterlights a 2 door car needs but have several broken ones. Hopefully i will get a pair out of them.

When i finish i will have to have a pitch at Stoneleigh and or Beaulieu. But until ive finish will need to hang on.

Also carried on rubbing down door faces applying Novol primer and epoxy primer.

Whilst at it located a couple of nos  cills that were up there. Again from my brother who had the basket case befor me.

These were rubbed down and coated with Vactan rust convertor. 

Had some supermarket crates arrive today

 Got a few already and as i move more stuff out garage loft need to put them somewhere. Got one of the dollies for these already and are great for garage storage but can also be pushed around out the way as well. 

So if the paint does not arrive and its only been 2 days. (I should have ordered earlier ) will  continue to see what treasures there are in the roof. 

Or i could primer the rear valences. 

To be continued.

 

 

[Paul H]

37 minutes ago, Richeee said:

Whilst waiting for the paint from the shop to arrive have carried on sortimg out the roof for hinges and other door gear. It is easy to forgot what you have squirreled away.

 

Not sure how many quaterlights a 2 door car needs but have several broken ones. Hopefully i will get a pair out of them.

When i finish i will have to have a pitch at Stoneleigh and or Beaulieu. But until ive finish will need to hang on.

Also carried on rubbing down door faces applying Novol primer and epoxy primer.

Whilst at it located a couple of nos  cills that were up there. Again from my brother who had the basket case befor me.

These were rubbed down and coated with Vactan rust convertor. 

Had some supermarket crates arrive today

 Got a few already and as i move more stuff out garage loft need to put them somewhere. Got one of the dollies for these already and are great for garage storage but can also be pushed around out the way as well. 

So if the paint does not arrive and its only been 2 days. (I should have ordered earlier ) will  continue to see what treasures there are in the roof. 

Or i could primer the rear valences. 

To be continued.

 

 

What temperature are you spraying at ?

Paul

[Richeee]

Most of it so far has been brushed and is for more temp protection whilst the restoration is going on.

The only spraying was the epoxy mastic today. The novol primer was brushed on and layed off. Couple of cans on doors and door internals.  It was about 15c in the garage. 2 wired in 3kw electric heaters and with a ceiling in the garage warms up quite well.

Will probably brush inside the doors with the cellulose top coats as well. This is just so that if you look in through the window channels its blue.

I have sprayed befor on a 2a landrover i restored.  This was a bit orange peely.  Building up courage to do it again.

 

 

 

[Josef]

15 hours ago, Richeee said:

Not sure how many quaterlights a 2 door car needs

Four of course, then you’ve got one whole light

Glad to see the door skins are looking like good pressings. I had a bad one… They all come from the same place, and the supplier was very reluctant to accept that one could possibly be wrong, despite photographs showing this was the case. Luckily Mick Dolphin had a NOS one which solved the problem for me (and I got a refund on the original eventually) but I was concerned that this was another thing we were only getting in crappy quality.

With the sills, even NOS Stanpart ones, be aware that they may also require some modifications to fit, so don’t topcoat them immediately! I was surprised there, but it’s the old 50 year old wonky body wonky chassis problem. For anyone looking for sills the modern repros looked pretty comparable to the NOS one I had:

Adjusting the Sills to Fit - NOS Versus New | 1970 Triumph Herald 13/60 | Part 15
https://youtu.be/1is9d95_ZvY
 

[johny]

I wouldnt be surprised if, by now, these panels werent being hammered out manually somewhere in India or maybe Eastern Europe...

[Richeee]

7 hours ago, Josef said:

Four of course, then you’ve got one whole light

Glad to see the door skins are looking like good pressings. I had a bad one… They all come from the same place, and the supplier was very reluctant to accept that one could possibly be wrong, despite photographs showing this was the case. Luckily Mick Dolphin had a NOS one which solved the problem for me (and I got a refund on the original eventually) but I was concerned that this was another thing we were only getting in crappy quality.

With the sills, even NOS Stanpart ones, be aware that they may also require some modifications to fit, so don’t topcoat them immediately! I was surprised there, but it’s the old 50 year old wonky body wonky chassis problem. For anyone looking for sills the modern repros looked pretty comparable to the NOS one I had:

Adjusting the Sills to Fit - NOS Versus New | 1970 Triumph Herald 13/60 | Part 15
https://youtu.be/1is9d95_ZvY
 

Thank you.

Intending to put the doors, cills front and rear valence on pre top coat to allign everything before taking all off again again for temp storage whilst i prepare the chassis for painting and refurb the running gear to accept the, body work once again. 

Hoping i dont have the hassle with the cills you had but no doubt will.

 

[redrat]

great work just read from beginning to end today

bought a herald a few mo the ago but no way could i do this due to lack of space etc 

[Richeee]

Thank you.

Just bumbling along really.    Somethings i know nothing about but read up watch youtube and give it a go.