Horns (Sorry!! I've read previous threads - honest!)

[Colin]

Chaps,

Dash back in (and everything working!!), I thought I'd make the most of the trailing 2nd horn wires (removed at some point in the past probably on 1st rough renovation decades ago) and comlete the horn set;

I made a new bracket for the second o/s missing horn. Took receipt of new Lucas horns, high and low tones and, after removing the old corroded spades and renewing them, fitted them up. Simples.

I had cleaned the 'pencil' spring connector at the sterring wheel horn end - I knew that could be oxidised at each end (and have bought a new replacement that didn't help).

But - no sound.

Horns bench tested, 12V across the terminals, in case the diaphragms were stuck. As expected, all good.

Confused myself before by using a new multimeter that confusingly showed a phantom 12V on both terminals of each horn!! I really didn't think that would be the case, so I got over that by going analogue and used a 12V bulb, tested for being good across the car battery, on the 12V feed wire (in my case Brown only, double wire) of horn 1 earthed to a bracket that I'd sanded back to bright steel on a small patch. Nice, bright bulb illumination. I then connected the double Brown/Black wire of the other horn terminal and found in reality, there is no 12V feed - thank goodness.

Same again for horn 2. Again, good bright bulb lighting on the Brown 12V live spade and nothing on the other.

BUT . . . no sound from either horn when 'push' operated. 

I am now assuming the problem is further back up the line - Someone is going to talk about the disc connection behind the 'pencil-spring' and to check the wiring tag??

That requires wheel removal does it not (pain, if I remember having done it once decades before . . . ??

But if anyone has any ideas, I'd be grateful:-

AND, Two Questions;

1) Do the horns require the bonnet to be in situ (clipped shut) to complete the earthing?                                                                                                                                           2) Does the horn push button (the one with the Logo and tag on the back) play any part in this other than the tag pusing the 'Pencil' sprung loaded connector which contacts the column disc? Because the brass/copper (?) spring which helps it sit in the column top, on mine, is quite slack.

On-going thanks, Chaps!! 

 

[Gully]

Answering the two questions first:

1. No

2. Seem to recall the spring retaining the push is part of the circuit

Have you checked the small wire which crosses the UJ on the steering column is in place and the steering rack earth wire is also in position? You'll need both for the horn circuit to complete.

Gully

[Colin Lindsay]

Horns are permanently live, so there's always a current at them; but they're one of these circuits that run in 'reverse' so to speak so the power runs back into the car and is earthed via the horn push and steering wheel. You should be able to test them in the car by earthing the 'power out' terminal at any point along the circuit right up to the steering wheel. Bonnet closure doesn't matter. Find the join on the circuit, the bullet connector, just below the steering wheel, earth that, and if the horns work the problem is further up.

Edit: Gully just beat me to it, the column power / earth connection needs to be continued across the steering coupling; the rack itself also needs a good earth to body, usually grease nipple to engine block or steering clamp u bolt under the chassis.

[Clive]

You can check the wiring up to the steering column quite easily. The wire is purple/black, so pulling the bullet out of the joiner under the column, and try earthing that is a simple test. You will know if the issue is before or after the column

You can then stuff a wire down the pencil hole of the steering boss, and earth that. And then onto teh UJ etc at the bottom of the column. The earth from the rack to the chassis is often (usually?) missing, same for the wire over the UJ thingy. 

 

[Colin]

Thanks! (I wish my phone would let me know there's been a reply or two!!)

I had some severe cleaning of cabling connectors to do before reconnecting . . .

The horn push spring is really slack (don't know how this has come about . .  I recall a bit of the spring sticking out both sides of it, ready to push into the column top - but it only sticks out one side at the moment - and almost wants to come away from the unit itself. I will order another as it's obviously fading! 

This is my Earth engine mount to steering rack (secured under the grease nipple blanking nut). This is how it was previously and has always worked . . . I re-made it, yesterday and cleaned every last surface of the elements involved.

Thanks, chaps. Will keep you posted.

 

[NonMember]

20 minutes ago, Colin said:

This is my Earth engine mount to steering rack

It's not enough just to earth the rack. You need to ensure there's an electrical link across the steering column UJ, as the OE one is non-conductive.

[Colin]

Hi Non-Member,

Thanks. It used to work like that. 

This UJ which is being mentioned:- Please look at the pics I attach. I cannot see a U/J on my column in the engine bay (first pic).

There's the collapse joint in the cabin (2nd pic). Other than that I can't see one . . . Its location, please?

Also showing slack horn push (might look 'normal'?

[Colin]

I mean I say it used to work; if I'm truthful, I cannot for the life of me remember the last time I hooted anyone in it - or my current everyday car, for that matter!! 🙂

[Colin]

As a Red Herring; My Bro' said if I earth the live side of a horn, it should activate it. All I got was a spark! 😄

[Iain T]

I had the same problem when I rewired the horn push in my Vitesse. I shorted the column brass ring to the column, nothing. I earthed to a known good earth bingo, burst eardrums. I found I had no earth strap on the steering column uj. Connected both sides of the uj and it worked so bought the correct braided strap and all fixed. 

Iain 

[Colin]

Iain T . . . my current issue is  . . . I don't appear to have a steering column U/J!! 

Can anyone show me a pic of their Herald engine bay depicting the location of this U/J, please?

My previous photo shows a straight column shaft to the rack . . . 

Thanks All ! 🙂

[Pete Lewis]

the uj is hidden behing the suspn turret 

if you hang upside down with a lamp and spec savers you will find  the UJ  Ha!  

its very common the wire link fractures and the earth circuit dies 

prove it with a jump from the shaft to earth  

Pete

[Colin]

I mean . . . if it's under the shock absorber and engine mount turret & bracket, there's no chance of gettign to it!

 

[Colin]

Pete - thanks. What a place to put it!

How heavy does the cabling need to be? Similar to my engine mount to steering rack? Or like the Engine earth strap (me thinks not - how the hell would anyone be able to connect either side of any U/J which exists?)

Anyone have a good suggestion as to how to

a) get to it

b) affix a decent earth??!?

Cheers All,

C.

[Pete Lewis]

most have a normal wire with eyelets to fit under the through bolts 

you could use a hose clip either side and a wire trapped between them as a bodge 

some make a bracket  attached to the baulkhead and a bit of copper/brass to rub the column shaft  

Pete

[Iain T]

7 minutes ago, Colin said:

Anyone have a good suggestion as to how to

a) get to it

b) affix a decent earth??!?

Ask a friend with small hands! 

It is possible but it's very fiddly the correct strap has eyelets which fit under bolts either side of the uj to bridge the rubber disc. 

I see Mr P has beaten me to it again! 

 

[Colin]

Hi All,

Well . . . I had completely forgotten about this part of the column . .  thank the good Lord Cheeses for mobile phones! I had forgotten that it existed, in fact. And, mention of it by others led me to believe, (out of sight and out of mind as it is) that my late Herald obviously didn't have one.

For those who will never understand the 'logic' of an artist, please see the YouTube rendition of "What Time Is It Eccles" Goons sketch.

Looks like a good clean-up is needed ??

I will uindertake this and report back.

MANY, MANY THANKS aas usual!! Simple task becomes a pain in the. . . . . 

Best,

C.

[NonMember]

10 minutes ago, Colin said:

Anyone have a good suggestion as to how to

a) get to it

b) affix a decent earth??!?

a) Undo the clamp that attaches it to the rack, then you can collapse the column to get the UJ clear of the suspension turret the other side.

b) I see you've found the one that was there.

[Colin]

My only last comment about this is: Why there??!! Just . . .  Why there . . . ??? 🤣

(Mind you, I'll be back if I manage to clean it all up and it doesn't work . . . !!!

 

Best, C.

[Iain T]

Good well done you've found it! Try earthing from the top of the column uj to a known good earth to test if it is in fact the uj strap. It should make you jump🙉

[Colin]

Hokie Cookie! Thanks! Looking at the space available I shall have to bung the local Pixie some dough to get hands, spanners & ratchets in!

But I will earth the column U/J & see what happens (does the cabin horn button need to be operated consecutively?)

[Iain T]

Yes it does. 

[Colin]

Thanks! I need more hans! 😉

[Iain T]

Colin, before you take the skin off your knuckles you can do a simple multimeter test for continuity ie is the circuit complete. 

Turn your meter to continuity, the meter screen will show "1". If the circuit is OK the reading will be "0" or near zero indicating no resistance. This is a very handy test! Try it with both probes touching say your door striker it should read zero. 

Put one probe on a bare surface of the upper column shaft and the other on the lower. The reading should be around zero meaning the wire bridging the uj is doing its job. If its 1 the wire needs replacing. If its zero or near zero turn the meter to volts and with the horn pushed put one probe on the upper steering column shaft and the other to a good earth ie chassis or engine. It should read 12v. If it does and the uj bridge is OK I give up! If there is no voltage the problem is probably in the horn area. Take the horn push out (I'm not conversant with the original Herald setup) and with a scrap wire touch the brass ring and column shaft. The horn should work. If it does the issue is the horn push. On my aftermarket boss the horn push has springs on the perifery that contact the boss and therefor the shaft. On mine there was over spray on the inside of the boss so I rubbed it down to achieve a good contact and it worked. 

Happy fiddling, hope this helps. 

Iain 

[Colin]

Thank Iain.

I will indeed do these things whilst the WD40 gets to soak that very dry joint!! 🙂

Definitive help indeed!