Mgf losing Coolant - Help needed

[Richeee]

Of course I realise this is a Triumph club , but as we have a Forum section entitled Non Triumph Cars thought i might post as need some help.

2000 Mgf , purchased 5 years ago as a non runner. Been stood for 3 years befor that £650.   For new tyres and for £250. Another £100 on an in tank fuel pump and 5 years worth of leave out in all weathers sports car.    Gets ignored apart from mot.    Has to live out moss on roof etc whilst garage is full of ' my precious herald restoration'

Anyway its been losing a bit of water, just a bit,  not to bad but fitted a water level sensor for reassurance.   But not getting worse and lost nearly all the water in its expansion tank since christmas. Just sat there with a couple of minor warm ups.  Am totally aware of head gasket problems with k series engines.   So performed a sniff test.

 

 

No change of colour. Ran for about 10 mins when warm.  Afterwards i blew through  the test kit and it instantly changed colour proving im knackered.

 

 

Yes lots of mayonaise on dip stick. But it seems all mgfs have this as the configutation of remote dip stick causes a lot of condensation in dip stick tube.  But level was high. Hmmm.

So next job was to raise the car on ramps and have a look at pipes. Not an easy job on an mgf.  Nearly 2 hours work to raise car as its too low for ramps and then nearly an hour removing rear roof and engine cover.

To eventually see the top of the engine.

Had alook in the cap on the top of the engine . More mayonaise.

Checked every pipe, from front to back. Lying under car in puddles. Engine running and not running. Could not see any leaks or drips at all.  2 left to check are the two that run in centre console to heater matrix.    There is water under front carpets. Clean though and almost certainly rain water, but seats and carpets will need to dry out and come out , so whilst at it the consoles can come out. But dont think its those.

So for the experts out there, can a sniff test be wrong.?   Can an engine have a headgasket gone and still pass a sniff test. ?

I can replace the gasket myself.  £150 for parts , belts pumps etc.  Its just the contortionist in me, hoping its not that.    Any body got any advice.?

[dougbgt6]

Well, that's not the worst "mayonnaise"  I've ever seen and there a saying on here "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"  I would be inclined to leave it until it gets worse, this is OK for an old robust Triumph engine, but I don't know for an MG?

I would dry the carpets and test again. However the water could be leaking into the exhaust and you wouldn't see it, until it gets really bad, white exhaust and water dripping from the pipe even when the engine is warmed up.

At  this point I would be concerned that rain water is getting into the cabin, new carpets costing what the do!

Good luck! Tell us how it goes.

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

the mayo on extremities is just normal low mileage lack of use cold weather condensation and rarely anything to link it to the HG 

i would add some K seal or Barrs and monitor further , as small leakage can be just  a hidden hose clip somewhere 

certainly  do that before you tear it down and dont solve it

Pete

[Richeee]

Thank you both.   Seems to mirroe my thoughts that may be not head gasket. 

Just been researching and it appears that the inlet manifold gasket can leak.  

It can either let water into the engine or out down under the manifold and happens when cold or hot.

Seems a telescopic mirror and a light is required. 

And arms like an octopus.

 

Will report back.

[Mark B]

I think losing nearly all the water in the expansion tank after just a couple of warm ups, you would have expected to have heard hissing or seen steam, smelling hot etc. and I would have thought a lot more mayo, and engine overheating. I know they can be prone to head gasket, but could possibly could be air in the system. I think there are three points to bleed off the cooling system to get rid of the air, engine , heater, and rad. Got to help my nephew do this shortly and watched a YouTube video.  That could explain the sudden drop in water level. Do'es the heater blow hot air?

[Richeee]

It does blow hot air. Know where the bleed points are but as you say. Could do with a bleed. 

Will try.

The gauge moves to a nothch below half and stays there.   But the rover software as known from my discovery has 3 positions for the gauge. Cold, warm, over heating. 

[Colin Lindsay]

Our Freelander also shows a 'coolant level low' warning sometimes; no traces of any leak. The expansion bottle drops by maybe an inch or so from time to time. I've no idea why; 500 miles last week in two long steady trips produced no level drop at all. No drips, no steam, no trace of anything in the oil. All I can do it to put it down to 'natural wastage' until I find the cause...

[Peter Truman]

We had a3lt Jaguar  X Type for 18 years several times over that period at around 5 year intervals it used to loose some from the plastic header tank each time it was the plastic header tank splitting on the underside a new header tank cured it for another 5 years the first time it took quite a while to find the leak as there was no sign of fluid It wasn’t much leakage just enough to make you think it ain’t right 

[Richeee]

Will have a look , good shout. Thanks.

[Richeee]

2 weeks ago had not found where my coolant was going.   Had suspicions but not certain as sniff test proved negative.

Anyway had water sloshing around inside so interior had to come out , which would also expose the 2 steel pipes that ran in a trough in the center console to the heater.   As opposed to the 2 that run under the car to the radiator.   These are stainless steel and i replaced these 5 years ago.

 

Must admit did feel sorry for my parts car and ignominiously having to act as an airer for the mg's carpets and trim.

All dry but coolant dropped again. 20mm in the last 2 weeks.

cheched the dipstick and found it was way above full.

 

Pulled the sump plug and firstly coolant came out followed by oil.

Heard of two tone music.   Now have 2 tone oil.

Access on mgf is not good. Had changed the cam belts before.   This time just have to go a bit further and change the head gasket for a multi layer all singing dancing one.

So jolly dee. Off to work

Finished up with exhaust manifold off. Cam belt removed.   Engine mounts and frame out through small hole by rear wheel. Plenum box , throttle body removed.   Inlet manifold unbollted.

But then thwarted as could not locate my torx heads for the cylinder head bolts.    Had 1/4 drive one which i would only end up breaking. Eventually found my bigger torx but toom ate by then. 

To be continued.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Richeee
Spelling.

[Richeee]

Realise that its not Triumph  but.........

Well 10 hours in now and head finally removed. Could not physically with my big hands get to some of the inlet manifold bolts that were on the underside of the manifold. So.that came out attached to the head.   Broke 1 wire connector that was still attached.  Whoops. Solder required.

All i have to do now is order head gasket kit that includes water pump timing belts etc, and try and fix back together.    When all done i may well dispose and get another Triumph as a runabout. Whilst my Herald Restoration stumbles on.   Bit annoying that on drive it day a. Nothing to drive as broken, and b.  Would have liked to have driven a Triumph anyway.   

Thats for the future.

The redish seals aroung the oil water ways were all pretty soft.  Gap in one. Not sure if originally there or i rub it off whilst cleaning.   Anyway it should stayed put. 

Thanks for indulging in a different marque but as we have a non triumph section in forum and we all like looking at pictures...........

 

To be continued.

[KevinR]

Stories like this make one thankful that Triumphs are easy to work on.

 

[Richeee]

Exactly. This was purchased for 650. Spent 400 on tyres, fuel pump and cam belt kit.  That gave me a 5 year open top runaround. 

Now probably time to pass on.   Wont pass on a dud because im not like that and enjoy working on things as much as driving some times. So will be got going with a decent head kit. But tinkering sat on a tyre of a spit , vitesse or herald is certainly beguiling me back in.

[Josef]

16 minutes ago, Richeee said:

Thanks for indulging in a different marque

It’s always interesting to see what people are up to doesn’t matter what it is

[Josef]

Also, I guess this demonstrates the mod cons of newer cars. Triumphs have to get their water for their wet carpets from the rain, they don’t carry their own convenient onboard supply! 

[PeteH]

And I so nearly took on the one my next door neighbour was parting with. At the time I was Sooooooo Tempted!.

Pete

[dougbgt6]

Yes very interesting! Keep us updated

In years to come, as TSSC members slip off their mortal coil, we will be widening our membership qualification.

I remember when the TSSC was small chassis Triumphs, but suddenly became ALL Triumphs.  (But we don't speak of that now.)

Doug

[Colin Lindsay]

+1 to Doug's reply; interesting and different!! no objection at all to other marque,s it's great to see the engineering and styling differences, and even modern cars that members are having problems with are welcome.

The only thing that gets my goat - and yes I still have hair to tear out - is someone with a modern claiming it's Classic. how the fiddle-dee-dee is a modern car a classic car? Expensive, powerful, rare maybe but NOT Classic.

I gave up on this local Facebook page a while back - "Classic and Retro Cars pre 2000 only" and it's nothing but ads for modern cars, usually BMWs and AUDIs as their owners think we're interested. YAWN.

 

 

[Richeee]

Right , these have arrived.

A multi layered shim gasket and a box of goodies. Just like christmas.

New belts, bolts, tensioner, pump, and assorted bits and pieces. 

The head gasket sppears to comprise of 5 layers of steel shims  comprising 1 head gasket  which is pressed in to conrours around the penetrations  and then there is a seperate gasket flat gasket called a saver gasket that goes on top. Full instructions included with the gaskets. 

Time will tell.   

To be continued.

 

[Colin Lindsay]

Does it say 'top'?

[Richeee]

It does, and front.    But on a sdeways engine it did confuse me. 

 

But front is towards the timing belts. 

In reality the head is not symetrical and can only go one way.   But i am probably the fool that foolproof was designed to test.

[Richeee]

Another 6 hours of my life today that i will not get back and its not done yet.   My resolve to replace it when working is even stronger.

First of replace the Variable Valve Control belt.   I did watch a dealers video from the mid 90's on how it actually works.   When i find it i will try and post.

To change the belt you have to relock the cams. They were previously locked but funny enough to split the head and block you have to remove the rear of the timing cover. This is only doable by removing the belt pulleys. Great bit of design.

Next to repair the the sender connecotor i broke. Solder and jb weld to rescue.

Time to put gaskets in place.

Head then lifted into place.   Sounds so much like a haynes manual.

But standing on a little stool hanging into the engine bay is not easy.

Straight legs and bent back. Not exactly what the doctor ordered.

Time for new stretch bolts. 20n followed by 2 lots of 180 degrees.  But my decent torque only starts at 30.    So set at 30 let of 10 on vernier. Then noted position. Tried with my christmas cracker cheapy and surprise both the same. So now sorted.

Turning 180 though the paint ony tell tales was not dry. Dots on the bolts. So i actually transferred new dots as i progressed.

But i was able to differentiate. Also making sure i kept to best 90 degree turns as i could.

Followed by cam cover gasket and cam cover.

Of course using the best tool of the day. The retractable magnet.

Next tried to lock the cams again. Even though it will be unset. But trying at every stage to lock.

This time using an led mirror.

Right now exhaust manifold back on.  Under the car to fit downpipe using new shiny gasket.

Plenum box bolted on and a myriad of electrical connectors and pipes, fuel and emmissions. Good job taken photos.

Time to pack up as going out for tea.   And i find a heat shield bracket i had forgotten to fix to exhaust.

16 hours in and ....

To be continued.

 

[Richeee]

Paranoia is a very apt word for working on this engine.    Keep re-reading the manuals and watching videos to make sure i dont miss anything.  

Kept the crank perfectly still, as yes did not want to move the sleeves. 

Marked lines on the vvc pulleys as well as used the factory markings, and you are right i did have 1 tooth off on my first and second goes but eventually got the marks as they were when i took the old vvc belt off.

Next job will be the new water pump and the tensioner etc befor i turn the engine by hand many times as i narotically check the timing marks.

Good to have you guys looking over my shoulder.

[Richeee]

Another futile few hours.   Trying to time up the lovely k series engine.   Managed it eventually but i went down a blind alley.

Basically i had put some marks in paint on the crankshaft pulley so that it would aid the new timing and had covered up the mg ones confusing myself.

First off the cam pulleys had to come off again so the one piece timing rear cover that bolts to the block and head could be fixed in place.    Watched a video recently where this cover had been broken to save taking the pulleys off.  Must admit i was tempted to cut but did not.

Next pulleys back on and make sure front and rear belts were alligned.

Not many photos of next bit as it was all going a bit square shaped.

The mg has two timing marks on the crank which gives a little bit of lee way about 1/2 a tooth. 

Only on mine i had put a red dot where it lined up with the mark and covered up on of the 2 marks on the crank pulley. Spent the next 3 hours working through the wheel well and over the top altering the belt 1 tooth at a time either on the cam or on the crank back and forward of my red mark trying to get it exactly on my red mark whick was covering up one of the dots.

So i was basically going from timed then 1 tooth off then back again. 

Grrrrrr.

 Eventually decided to sit down and reread the work shop manual.   Scraped off the red paint. Realised i should have been aiming between the 2 dots, and it all slotted into place.

But Mr Amazon bought me a new toy to cheer me up.

 A cam pulley tool to hold them tight while you torgue up.    You cant tourge against the belt and no real way of holding sensibly.

I was hoping to finish today but still got to bolt the suspension / engine mount back together.  Redo the coolant. Change the oil and refit the dried out interior.   Then see if it starts and hopefully cured the problem. 

To be continued.

[Josef]

I can see why having the head gasket changed is a major selling point on these. On the plus side pointing people at this thread will be good for your advert if you do decide to sell!