JohnD Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) No, Kelv, you've done the right thing! Because your picture has revealed the problem! See this copy of the parts diagram from the Canley Classics website: There should be a collar at either end of the rocker shaft, retaining it in place - THEY ARE NOT THERE! The shaft has been retained, more or less, by the rocker cover. after you removed it the end rocker could easily slide off, and probably has been doing so in use., but only as far as the cover. Any witness marks on the inside of the cover? The rocker has probably been half hanging off the end of the shaft, on a cant, unable to move and the abnormal leverage hass dislodged the valve guide. As as said above DO NOT START THE ENGINE! You need to have the head off now, and have the guide replaced - "knurling" might ensure that a new guide will stay in place. This has to be down to your DPO (Damned Previous Owner) who has left the end collars out, or not retained them with the right pin. It should be a solid metal "Mills Pin" and the DPO probably used split pin. Sorry, but at least you know now! John Edited August 25, 2023 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 Unfortunately I think the head probably has to come off to sort the valve and guide out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelv Posted August 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 Ok. I'll have to let my mechanic do what he first suggested. I'll have to buy another car to get me to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 If that valve has fallen into the cylinder, there may well be damage to the piston/bore, head needs to come off to assess but be prepared for more than just a recon cylinder head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 If he was really ingenious there might be a quick way to do it but youre definitely missing some bits and I take it you probably want a proper job done? Did the valve and rocker come off in your hand (honest guv!) or were you investigating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) NO, NO, NO, Kelv! Your "mechanic" has no idea, no idea at all! Except how to bilk you of money You can buy a reconditioned cylinder head from Canley's for £365, which is a LOT better than the inflated price he wanted. See: https://www.canleyclassics.com/?catalogue=triumph-herald-1200&diagram=triumph-herald-1200-engine You could talk to them about the rocker assembly which would be extra, OR they can supply a complete rebuilt engine for £625, still less than the £1000 your so-called 'mechanic' wanted! See: https://www.canleyclassics.com/?product=rebuilt-engines John (No connection with Canley's, except as a satisfied customer. Other engine reconditioners are available!) Edited August 25, 2023 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 minute ago, DanMi said: If that valve has fallen into the cylinder, there may well be damage to the piston/bore, head needs to come off to assess but be prepared for more than just a recon cylinder head Couldnt have fallen in running or there would have been a big bang! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 35 minutes ago, JohnD said: You could talk to them about the rocker assembly which would be extra, OR they can supply a complete rebuilt engine for £625, still less than the £1000 your so-called 'mechanic' wanted! That £625 is for a short engine not a full engine. I do agree though that the price quoted for a cylinder head is very high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelv Posted August 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 45 minutes ago, johny said: If he was really ingenious there might be a quick way to do it but youre definitely missing some bits and I take it you probably want a proper job done? Did the valve and rocker come off in your hand (honest guv!) or were you investigating? I took the rocker cover off. Started the car. Videoed the rocker in operation. Switched car off. Put the cover back on and then attempted to drive the car. After 100 meters the engine produced a loud clattering sounds so I reversed the car back home. I took rocker cover off. Saw the bits lying free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelv Posted August 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 49 minutes ago, JohnD said: NO, NO, NO, Kelv! Your "mechanic" has no idea, no idea at all! Except how to bilk you of money You can buy a reconditioned cylinder head from Canley's for £365, which is a LOT better than the inflated price he wanted. See: https://www.canleyclassics.com/?catalogue=triumph-herald-1200&diagram=triumph-herald-1200-engine You could talk to them about the rocker assembly which would be extra, OR they can supply a complete rebuilt engine for £625, still less than the £1000 your so-called 'mechanic' wanted! See: https://www.canleyclassics.com/?product=rebuilt-engines John (No connection with Canley's, except as a satisfied customer. Other engine reconditioners are available!) Ok. It's a 1300 engine though, but 1200. I messaged canley classics yesterday but received no reply yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelv Posted August 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 So if I order a 1300 short engine... Then what do I do? Who will fit it and what will they charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelv Posted August 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 And how do I know if I've ordered the right one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 valve guides should be a light press fit . often drifted in with a mallet and adrift . the missing collar has popped the key hole cap off and dropped the valve the head has to come off takes 30mins in the sunshine then dog can see the rabbit not seen any oversize guides johns idea of a knurl or even loctite bearing fit might help a loose guide pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 try ringing the club shop as they certainly used to get engines/cylinder heads rebuilt by Ivor Searl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 oh dear I take it back then, Dan could be right and there is significant damage in the cylinder☹️Definitely got to remove head now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Kelv said: So if I order a 1300 short engine... Then what do I do? Who will fit it and what will they charge? a short engine is just the block with crank pistons oil pump and sump, so you would need a 1300 cylinder head, camshaft rockers etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelv Posted August 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 So what exactly do I need to order? 1300 cylinder head? Camshaft rockers? Etc? What's the etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelv Posted August 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 Ok. I'm stressed now and confused. Can somebody take over and organise this repair and I'll throw money at them. I would rather my £1000 go to you than my local mechanic. I've got to find a cheap car so I can get to work. I'm a personal assistant to a man with cerebral palsy. My Herald is my only vehicle and was my daily driver. 😔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 dont buy anything till you know just whats required you may just need a new valve guide and rocker shaft end cap and pin is the loose rocker showing any strange wear damage , if the dropped valve happend while running you may be in for a major rebuild. on the other had you may not you must have a good look see and not guess Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 It would probably be better to buy a complete engine even a used one. To convert to a 1300 would require a different inlet manifold, carburettor. It is not a straight swop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 Dan this is a 13/60 there is a fair 13/60 on club classified for £1500 The Triumph Sports Six Club - Classifieds (tssc.org.uk) Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: dont buy anything till you know just whats required you may just need a new valve guide and rocker shaft end cap and pin is the loose rocker showing any strange wear damage , if the dropped valve happend while running you may be in for a major rebuild. on the other had you may not you must have a good look see and not guess Pete Cant make out how the valve came free! Oh yes I can - without the end cap the rocker moved along the shaft and pushed on the valve spring cap instead of the valve stem so the collets fell out and the valve was free to fall into the cylinder. It might have then been pushed up by the piston against the valve guide so that got forced out of the head🙁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: Dan this is a 13/60 That looks like a 1200 engine to me as it has 6 cylinder head nuts on the manifold side and the rocker shaft is definitely the early 1200 type Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinR Posted August 25, 2023 Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 Kelv, remove the head so we can see how much damage there is to the piston. worst case is it’s been punctured, or the cylinder wall has been damaged. best case is just getting a replacement head with new valves and rocker shaft. but until we see inside it’s all guess work. if you can contact Hugh Glossop and he is prepared to help you are on a winner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelv Posted August 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2023 The engine is supposed to be a 1300. serial number is the same as 13/60 serial numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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