Vitesse 6 'weak' synchro on 2nd

[Bobtaylor]

Hi, my recently aquired 1966 Vitesse 6 has a weak synchro on 2nd gear, changing up and down.

double declutching solves the problem! I have never stripped or repaired a gearbox is it possibly a DIY job? Also there is quite a whine on 2nd and 3rd, but 4th is fine. The gearbox was rebuilt 6 years ago and has done less than2000 miles since.

any advice, is swapping for a later box an option or rebuild existing or just perfect my double declutching?

PS it is non overdrive.

Bob

[Pete Lewis]

Firstly all synchro relies on a clearing clutch, any drag will seriously affect synchronisation

The 3 synchro box is very easy to DIY, and  depends on the rebuild , some new hub springs and a baulk ring may give a good improvement

A set of circlip pliers , a rod drift, hammer , and 1/2" and 7/16" af spanner is about all you need plus the coupling nut 

Length of cord to lift the cluster back in place .  All  quite simple DIY

New gaskets and oil ssals and i like loctite   574 as a  bullet proof face to face sealer 

Pete

 

Whine could be the mainshaft spigot is failing, or layshaft  needle spindle wear  

 

[Bobtaylor]

Pete,

thanks for the reply. The clutch is self adjusting, so if there is drag how do I resolve the problem?

thinking about it the pedal travel is quite small compared to my 12/50 that I had. Maybe that is part of the problem?

[Nick Jones]

If it will go into first or reverse ( both without any synchro) cleanly without crunching then I reckon your clutch is fine.

First is always noisy being straight cut but second and third shouldn’t be, though some mild whine could be considered typical.  These boxes are pretty feeble and some re-con boxes contain more con than others.....

[Pete Lewis]

Nicks right a simple test will give a good clue.

If there is drag some clues might assist

There is often wear on the pedal /pushrod clevis

You can have a thin throwout brg 15mm thick orig is 19mm thick so some lost leverage on the throwout lever

Wear on the throw out lever to carrier pins 

All small zones that can add up to lost efficiency

You can slot the m cyl bracket to bulkhead  holes and slide the whole assy , this raises the pedal ,might sound a bodge but can work wonders

Dont remove the push rod free play it must have a small float.

Also check the pedal is not seized/stiff and not fully returning , 

On my Vit6 i ended up fitting a 4 sync box to improve the crash on 1st 

Pete

Of you get the box off and fancy a trip to sunny luton can show you how to Diy and i have a good few spares if needed

[Bobtaylor]

There is another 'symptom', it gets better when it is warm or at least been driven a short distance.

Pete, what is involved in fitting a later box, assuming I can find one, is it atraight swap?

Bob

[Nick Jones]

I think straight swap apart from the propshaft flange.......?  Could be wrong as I've never had a 1600.  The 2L version is a better box, but still feeble.  Overdrive is very nice to have if you do more than local pottering about.

[Pete Lewis]

yes its a straight swap and yes you may need your orig coupling 

a 4 sync  is more of a faf to re assemble  than a 3 sync.

you cant convert  3 into 4  but some !!!   gears are the same .

synchro does not just depend on the baulk rings the state of the chamfers on the sleeve and gear dog teeth are very important they are not chimbled through lots of clashing must be a well defined  /\  

Pete

[Barry Deas]

HI I'm new to this site and to Triumph Herald's in general, also please bare with me as I'm not a mechanic either, I have a 1965 Herald 12/50 which is now running and driving, it goes up the gears ok but crunches into 1st and reverse and then crunches coming back down the box. I was told when the clutch was being freed off after sitting a long time there was bits if steel cog teeth in the gearbox oil when it was stripped out then put back together. The clutch now works but was told best to change the gearbox or get it reconditioned, does anyone have a box to fit or even point me in the right direction please, I don't want to spend a fortune on this so working from a bit of a tight budget as this was unexpected. I'm in Leven in Fife Scotland if anyone can help it would be much appreciated. 

[NonMember]

First and reverse are both non-synchro on a Herald, so it will "crunch" if put into them on the move. There will be a slight crunchiness putting it in first or reverse when stationary, especially if you're the sort of modern car driver who moves the gear stick at the same time as the clutch.

You say the clutch now works but how well? If it has been "freed off" by the start-in-gear-with-clutch-down method then it mght well still be dragging, or the hydraulics might not be up to full spec.

If there really were "bits of steel cog teeth" in the gearbox oil then I'd expect far worse problems than a bit of crunching.

[Chris A]

49 minutes ago, NonMember said:

First and reverse are both non-synchro on a Herald, so it will "crunch" if put into them on the move. There will be a slight crunchiness putting it in first or reverse when stationary, especially if you're the sort of modern car driver who moves the gear stick at the same time as the clutch.

 

What I do with my 13/60 when I want 1st from stationary and cold is to put it into 2nd then into 1st, this seems to avoid any noises. For reverse, yes clutch in slight delay then engage reverse. Once the engine is warm and unless I'm moving off on a hill the car will pull away in 2nd, again avoids the non syncro 1st.

There is also the good old double de-clutch method of changing between syncro and non syncro 1st & 2nd.

 

[Barry Deas]

The clutch plate was stuck on so much the gearbox had to be removed to pry off the plate, this was when the 2 very small metal bits were found, the clutch was found to be in good condition so it was then put back together on the hope it would be ok. I'll try drive it today for a bit more of a run as it's a nicer day weather wise lol. I was considering a full conversion with an MX5 complete running gear but again I'm looking for advice on that.

[Pete Lewis]

so you dont know if the box was stripped for examination. was  any tooth failure found , has been  repaired or the tooth particles were from some previous life ??

Pete

[Barry Deas]

Hi unfortunately I wasn't there at the time but I believe it was from existing gearbox but I'll double check with the garage, however they didn't strip down inside the gearbox as far as I know anyway. 

[Pete Lewis]

Well of the metal parts found were in clutch housing ,not inside the gear case then they could be from anyone anywhere

And not related to the gearbox at all   and  may be from  the starter pinion or ring gear.

 

Pete

[Barry Deas]

No they were found in the gearbox casing when emptying the oil unfortunately, i think I'll be looking for another box or go the full haul and do the conversion 🤔 

[Pete Lewis]

You may be right 

Pete

[Barry Deas]

18 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

You may be right 

Pete

Does anyone know if the mx5 engine wil go into the Herald without too much trouble? I see on a few forums its been done but I can't find a link for the videos or instructions ? Thanks Barry 

[Clive]

Hmm, I know of one. Now turbocharged...

I have put alternative engines in. The challenges are usually getting the rest of the car able to cope with the extra power, but depending on which MX5 engine a 2 litre Vitesse or GT6, or spit 1500 diff will be adequate. You will need GT6/Vitesse front brakes.

Somewhere you will find instructions on stripping the MX5 loom down to get the bits you need. Kitcar forums may be useful/

You will probably need to make a few engine mounting brackets etc, and adapt the exhaust.

Do not expect it to be "easy", but certainly possible. Great engine and box.

[Barry Deas]

40 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

You may be right 

Pete

Thanks for your help, my herald is the 22/50 so comes with the front disc brakes, I saw a note on another website suggesting to lift the body from my herald and put it into the MX5 but again not sure if that will fit yet, the MX5 is pretty much bare so ill get a closer look soon. Thanks 

[Clive]

The method I have used is to take the (in my case spitfire, yours the herald so more space) radiator, engine, box etc out to leave a bare engine bay. Then crane the new engine/box in and support on blocks etc and manoeuvre about until happy. That may or may not mean some cutting here and there. Don't forget ancillaries. And getting the gearbox level. 

I then decided on engine mounts. Either the ones off the donor engine, and then use box section or whatever to wherever is suitable on the chassis. Or I have had success using a mounting of my choice attached to the chassis or the front suspension towers, attach a plate to the engine and again join the 2. Similar for gearbox. 

Then it gets trickier with exhausts etc, but it is usually do-able, and as you say there are heralds and spitfires out there with MX5 engines. But I expect every one is done differently.

[Barry Deas]

Brilliant stuff, much aprecited for all the info received,  does anyone have a YT video or something to give guidance as I'm a new to all this. 

[Bobtaylor]

I started the thread and so will now update you all. Thanks to all for the advice.

As suggested I checked for wear in the clevis pin etc, in doing so I noticed that the fluid level was a bit low and when I pulled the rubber boot back there was evidence of a slight leak.

I fitted a new master cylinder and now all is well!!

Regards

Bob

[johny]

yes fraid your thread suffered a severe hijack but glad to hear the problem is resolved. Hopefully the gearbox will give many miles of good service but remember they do tend to be noisy (especially if the cover isnt very well soundproofed) which makes it difficult to tell when a real problem is developing so that you run the risk of not catching it in time and suffering major expensive damage.

With my 2L Ive developed a 'kind as possible' gear changing technique, well techniques as its different for different gears and of course religiously keep the oil level topped up. This last point is critical as theres not much capacity to start with and then the oil seems to evaporate away😁 leaving a low level which is the quickest way to finish off the box.....