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Herald 1200 warm starting problems


Nick Bertram
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Right - I have had enough and too many frustrating runs out in my 1200 Herald!

Starts from cold with choke third crank. Has done so for years. Settles to idle and runs very sweetly.

Take out for run, gets to temp, still running fine if not in start stop traffic. If in traffic can stall and then won't start until it cools down or turn off on the key and won't start until cools down. When running again runs fine without any issues.

Work done recently:

Fuel system: solex carb rebuilt and new inline fuel filter installed. Fuel pump dismantled and cleaned. Fuel/air mix jet and idle set.

Electrics: new rotor arm, points cleaned and gapped, all wires checked and connections ok. Leads and cap all good.

My thoughts: try new coil? another new rotor arm?

Any other thoughts gratefully received. 

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Hi Nick, is the coil hot? If so try fitting another (if you have a spare) If it starts straight away it may well be down to the condensor. I have had this happen on a couple of cars and ended up moving the condensor onto the bulkhead where it was nice and cool. Never had a problem after that.

Tony.

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When it stops and refuses  to start  I would whip the cleaner off and look  down the throat  

Is  fuel percolating from the jets ,,  or the accel  pump nozzle ???

Its worth changing the coil as a test , do  make sure  the coil polarity is correct  if its neg earth then dizzy wire is on the coil neg.

Not likely to be rotor related

There are some awful condensers about.

Pete

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5 minutes ago, 68vitesse said:

Run a Vitesse so Stromberg's, a completely different animal to solex which I believe are fixed jet.

All I can think of is a blocked or partially blocked jet.

 

Regards

Paul

yeah I had the same thought and have flushed out the carb in situ without stripping it down again.

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4 minutes ago, poppyman said:

Hi Nick, is the coil hot? If so try fitting another (if you have a spare) If it starts straight away it may well be down to the condensor. I have had this happen on a couple of cars and ended up moving the condensor onto the bulkhead where it was nice and cool. Never had a problem after that.

Tony.

Coil has been on for some years and have a spare which I could swap over. It does feel quite warm. I have had condensor problems before (tricky so and so's aren't they)!

I forgot to mention that I have bought an electronic ignition kit (+ve earth) which will hopefully deal with that issue. Mind you that will be a new thread as I can't work out how the +ve white lead attaches to the +ve feed.

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7 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

When it stops and refuses  to start  I would whip the cleaner off and look  down the throat  

Is  fuel percolating from the jets ,,  or the accel  pump nozzle ???

Pete

Hi Pete,

Even when I pull off the cleaner and dribble some fuel directly in to the carb it doesn't start. I will have a better look next time! What should I be seeing?

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17 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

When it stops and refuses  to start  I would whip the cleaner off and look  down the throat  

Is  fuel percolating from the jets ,,  or the accel  pump nozzle ???

Its worth changing the coil as a test , do  make sure  the coil polarity is correct  if its neg earth then dizzy wire is on the coil neg.

Not likely to be rotor related

There are some awful condensers about.

Pete

Mmmm I think I will need to check the coil polarity is correct! Therefore on a +ve earth the dizzy wire should be on the +ve coil terminal?

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11 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

Some carbs will dump fuel into the manifold when hot parked  then its to rich to restart

Looking for any droplets of fuel 

Is the manifold drain tube clear ??

Many have had problems with  pos earth electronic units,

Good luck

Pete

Never checked the manifold drain tube. That is the little pipe with a nut screwed in holding it isn't it?

I haven't fitted it yet. There are two wires as you know - the black is fine and just attaches to the dizzy/coil lead. The other one (white) has to be joined in before the coil from the ignition feed but I can't see how that is done on mine. Will not attempt until clearer after more research.

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1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

Some carbs will dump fuel into the manifold when hot parked  then its to rich to restart

Looking for any droplets of fuel 

Is the manifold drain tube clear ??

Many have had problems with  pos earth electronic units,

Good luck

Pete

This gets my vote.  Had this on my 1200 many years ago and then on a Peugeot 205 which was even worse.  Basically the fuel in the float chamber heats up expands and overflows down the carb throat when the engine is switched off hot, flooding the engine.

The starting technique was to slowly open the throttle all the way and hold it, then crank until the engine starts (quite a few turns!).  Don't pump the throttle as the accelerator pump then adds more fuel!

Worth checking that the float height is not too high and also that the needle valve is not leaking as this tends to increase the fuel level in the float chamber even if the float height seems correct.

In theory the manifold drain should stop this effect on the 1200 but I have read (on here, recently) that not all re through-drilled.

Nick

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3 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

This gets my vote.  Had this on my 1200 many years ago and then on a Peugeot 205 which was even worse.  Basically the fuel in the float chamber heats up expands and overflows down the carb throat when the engine is switched off hot, flooding the engine.

The starting technique was to slowly open the throttle all the way and hold it, then crank until the engine starts (quite a few turns!).  Don't pump the throttle as the accelerator pump then adds more fuel!

Worth checking that the float height is not too high and also that the needle valve is not leaking as this tends to increase the fuel level in the float chamber even if the float height seems correct.

In theory the manifold drain should stop this effect on the 1200 but I have read (on here, recently) that not all re through-drilled.

Nick

Many thanks Nick and to all of your for your helpful comments.

It looks like

  • a double check on polarity at coil
  • followed by coil swap.
  • Then onto condenser change
  • before I rip into the carb!
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8 hours ago, poppyman said:

Mounting a new condensor on the bulkhead means you can use a decent make such as a bosch one that fits vauxhalls. They dont need to be in the dizzy :)  If that sorts it? You might not want the electronic Nick?

Tony.

Any chance of a link to the bulkhead condenser ?

Paul

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i have no experience with the 1200, I have a 13/60. Last year I misread the instructions for adjusting the mixture and ended up with exactly the same problem. Started fine as usual, ran great. If I stopped the engine and left the car for a while it restarted ok but if I stopped it and then tried to restart it wouldn't. so maybe you have an over rich mixture? 

Good luck, I'm sure someone here will have the cure.

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On a down draft  you can only adjust tje mixture at idle , once you open the throttles the jetting is fixed and the idle circuit is not used 

So you can set up a rich idle but not change the main running mixture

If the  idle screw is giving a too fast idle revs the mixture screw will not have much effect  as the circuit is getting closed by the open throttle,  its slow the idle and set the idle mix to best , reset the idle and re check 600 to 750 max rpm

Pete

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1 hour ago, Paul H said:

Any chance of a link to the bulkhead condenser ?

Paul

Hi Paul, I no longer have the cars i fitted it to so no pic in situ. But this is condensor i used which has a nice bracket so it can be mounted and a long lead so it can be fitted out of sight. The extra terminal was just well insulated. I was told when i first fitted it that older condensors stop working as well when they got hot in dizzy due to ethanol etc in the fuel making the engines run hotter. Some people may say "rubbish" but it has worked for me on two cars now, plus others have used it.

Tony. 

001.jpg

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7 minutes ago, poppyman said:

Hi Paul, I no longer have the cars i fitted it to so no pic in situ. But this is condensor i used which has a nice bracket so it can be mounted and a long lead so it can be fitted out of sight. The extra terminal was just well insulated. I was told when i first fitted it that older condensors stop working as well when they got hot in dizzy due to ethanol etc in the fuel making the engines run hotter. Some people may say "rubbish" but it has worked for me on two cars now, plus others have used it.

Tony. 

001.jpg

I’m interested as there a lot of duff condensers out there and they all look the same to me whereas the Bosch brand should mean  reliability 

Paul 

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7 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

On a down draft  you can only adjust tje mixture at idle , once you open the throttles the jetting is fixed and the idle circuit is not used 

So you can set up a rich idle but not change the main running mixture

If the  idle screw is giving a too fast idle revs the mixture screw will not have much effect  as the circuit is getting closed by the open throttle,  its slow the idle and set the idle mix to best , reset the idle and re check 600 to 750 max rpm

Pete

Hi Pete, yes have set the mix at idle (turned in air/fuel mix screw until it nearly stalled and backed it off a tad).

I have had some dodgy condensers too. Will work through both fuel and ignition systems systematically and let you know the outcome.

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7 hours ago, Chris A said:

i have no experience with the 1200, I have a 13/60. Last year I misread the instructions for adjusting the mixture and ended up with exactly the same problem. Started fine as usual, ran great. If I stopped the engine and left the car for a while it restarted ok but if I stopped it and then tried to restart it wouldn't. so maybe you have an over rich mixture? 

Good luck, I'm sure someone here will have the cure.

Many thanks Chris. Noticed you are in Normandy. My folks have a place 30mins south of Caen near Thury-Harcourt.

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Hi all,

Just a quick update on this issue. Thought I would start with the easier stuff so I could discount them.

Checked coil polarity - ok

Checked spark at dist from coil lead - fine

Changed condenser - started first time. Took out for drive and up to temp. Started first time from hot - numerous times!

Not had to rip into carb - yet.

Thanks again for all your comments.

Happy Triumphing and sorry to have missed Leatherhead.

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