Couple of Herald cooling system questions

[Tom]

Hello, whilst the paint is curing on the rear tub I have been working on I've decided to get the engine to a state in which I can start it.

I've decided to start on the cooling system, I've got a new water pump as mine feels lumpy, I have a new fan belt and coolant ready, all the hoses look good with no cracks.

The system is completely standard and I intend to flush the whole system.

My two questions are.

1. One of the core plugs has been weeping, the rear one on left side of the block. Any tips on replacing the plugs would be welcome.

2. This one is a bit more in depth! Currently I have a standard radiator fitted and I am happy with that, I do like to keep things as standard as possible, don't ask me why I just like things that way? However I understand the world is a different place to 1965, ie warmer and more congested which puts a strain on old cooling systems. Over the years I've collected bits and bobs and among them I have a full width radiator from maybe a Vitesse/GT6? and a neat little electric fan which fits perfectly in front of it.I'm not usually a fan ( excuse the pun!) of stick electric fans in front of radiators but withe a full width I could position it to one side ( see pic ) so as not to impede airflow and then have the fan on a switch in the cabin so if the temp in traffic starts to rise I could have extra cooling to hand?

or

am I being daft, should I just leave it standard?

Tom.

[Colin Lindsay]

Core plugs are just dug out with a screwdriver or the like; hammer it through them until they distort or puncture - there's nothing in behind. Clean around the aperture and especially in the water jacket behind the plug, and replace the same size (and style - dished or bucket types can't be interchanged.) Just drive the new one in with a socket of the same size, and maybe a bit of sealer around the plug too if you feel the need.

I've fitted full-width radiators to all my Heralds, and with that fitted never felt the need for a fan. It wouldn't do any harm; not much of an impedence to airflow, and there if you need it, at the flick of a switch. 

 

 

[NonMember]

Full-width fans were fitted to some Heralds and early Spitfires - they don't fit Vitesse or GT6 because there's no space in front of the engine. The factory changed from the wide to the narrow at some point in production, which was probably because they started to run the engine hotter for better efficiency. No real reason not to fit the full-width but for most people it's not needed, as long as the system is in decent condition.

[Tom]

Would I be right in thinking the thermostat controls the running temp not the rad?  

Maybe I'll run it standard for a while and see how I get on? 

Another reason I'm contemplating it is that I intend to do a few camping trips in the future in Northern France and the extra cooling might come in handy?

[Pete Lewis]

yes the stat controls the engine temperature ,it only lets hot into the rad when its opened ,  in fact the stat modulates it floats from open to closed all the time 

when its running if you look in the filler you will see the coolant ebb and flow as it controls the flow  every few seconds .

std is 82c   hot climates 78c      later cars with emissions taking hold 88c might be specified for weaker mixture running 

Pete

[Tom]

Ok, it's a while since I used the car so I think I'll stick with the std system for now but it's good to know the full width rad is there if I start to find I need it.

[Andrew]

Hi tom futted a new radiatior last year and if you remember we had a few days over 32degrees my car kept is cool with no problem

[ahebron]

Hi Tom

That photo does not look like a Vitesse or GT6 radiator to me.
Vitesse and GT6 radiators fit between the chassis rails and that one won't.
 

Adrian

[Peter Truman]

I'd say its a Herald rad as the Spit has the filler on the offside top so its lower and gives more clearance to the bonnet!

Adrian how did you get  on with the Earthquake yesterday, didn't appear to be too much damage just a shake n roll!

Peter T

[ahebron]

Hi Peter

It was all good, shower doors rattled a bit, I must be getting used to them.
Had another one at lunch time today, a 5.2 at the same spot. According to Geonet here has been 23 tremors since monday morning.
It was nothing compared to the Kaikoura quake a few years back, that one woke me up.

Adrian

 

[dave.vitesse]

A full length rad was fitted up to around 1966. The new super efficient, using Standard Triumphs words at the time, rad in fact gave less cooling. I agree with all the comments re the rad and have also fitted full length rads. In my case to a 1500 powered Herald and 1500 Spit. This cured the stuck in traffic over heating problems in 30c + temperatures. We were stuck on the A30 in Cornwall in a very long tail back many years ago. Heater on and roast!

The original Herald Thermostat was 72C and changed to 82C in the mid 1960's. At the time 88c was specified for cold climates by Standard Triumph or winter in the UK. The 88C was fitted as standard to late TR7's, 1979 on, to help reduced the emissions. But not Heralds

I agree with Peter T, it look I a Herald rad.

Dave

[Chris A]

47 minutes ago, dave.vitesse said:

 

I agree with Peter T, it look I a Herald rad.

Dave

It doesn't look like my 13/60 rad. Mine has the filler on the off side, maybe mine isn't the original I have no idea. It works so I am NOT going to meddle, honest really, I would never touch anything that worked with the intention of making it better, really the very idea . . . 😏

The photo is as the car was bought a number of things have been changed since then, including the heater 'hoses'. 

[Colin Lindsay]

Yours is the narrow version, Chris, with the two large supporting panels, one either side, and is probably the original type for that model.

Heralds actually started off with the full-width radiator and centre filler cap; they then went to the narrow radiator for the rest of production and used the same radiator as the Spitfire range, but many current manufacturers will chop and change versions - there are a lot of full-width models available now as modern copies, some with quite noticeable differences from the original. I use full-width on both my 1200s, I had them recored to a modern core and they both still have the central filler cap which the originals had; yet I did a quick search for Spitfire versions this morning and the two that I found both have fillers to one side - probably for bonnet room but also for ease of maintenance, they didn't want the driver to have to lean in over a potentially hot engine and get burned, or dirty, when refilling, so the filler was put closer to one side to make refilling easier. 

As Tom says it's the thermostat that controls the actual flow and therefore the temperature; with a modern core I'd reckon the full-width versions are more than adequate with just the standard engine fan and if needs be can always be blanked off.

[Tom]

Ahh to be honest I didn't know what my full width rad came off, Vitesse and GT6 were just a guess.

So if I am right in thinking the Early models were fitted with full width and then the narrow came later, my car is a 1965 1200 so maybe it originally had a full width?

I'm sure the narrow would be fine for 90% of the time, the idea was that if I fitted the full width with the fan at least I'd have the option of electric cooling if I needed it?

[NonMember]

I think a 1965 was probably the narrow one but I'm not sure. Like I said, nothing wrong with going full width, it just means your engine will take longer to get fully warm (though no difference in time to get "mostly" warm and choke can go in).

[Pete Lewis]

Rob,  i would say doesnt matter what capacity rad or system you have the stat wont open till the block temperature is hot enough for it to start to open and as soon as it detects cooler it closes again 

Pete

[Chris A]

Thanks Colin, very detailed reply as would be expected from a 5th Dan. I dont need to measure mine now, I did think it was a norrow one, honest.

My system seems to work fine but I rarely get stuck in traffic in hot weather. The system has been flushed through, heater made to work also (secondry cooling fan if needed 😁) plus the fan has been replaced by the 7 blade plastic version, which I believe was the 'export option for hot countries' such as Normandy 😅

Having the filler on the side does help filling and looking at the level/state of coolant.

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

Rob,  i would say doesnt matter what capacity rad or system you have the stat wont open till the block temperature is hot enough for it to start to open and as soon as it detects cooler it closes again

That's true, Pete, but within the industry "fully warm" is defined, effectively, as when the stat remains open rather than cycling. This takes longer if you have more coolant.

[dave.vitesse]

Most 13/60's had the narrow rad, if it works OK I would it leave.

The full length Herald rad was fitted to a number of export models. There is a difference between the early 948 rad and the later type full length type as the core is less efficient on the earlier version.

Dave   

[Tom]

I'll stick with the little one for now and see how I get on.

Chris A, yes I know Brittany is not the hottest but I do go right down to Arcachon with a boot full of camping gear on the odd occasion and it can get a bit toasty down there!

Got bigger fish to fry at the moment as the rear tub is going back on in the next day or two!!!

[dave.vitesse]

The main problems are on the 1500 Spit because when they increased the size of the engine they didn't increase the size of the rad. As I said stuck in traffic in Cornwall, that was with a 1500 Spit and about normal. The full length rad does help the Herald keep cool in very hot weather, but the standard one works in most situations.

Dave

[Tom]

So just going through the rest of the cooling system, I've got the rad out now (  more on that later ) water pump off and thermostat out.

The stat is an 88degC, so is that a post 1966 one? Will it be ok in my 65? I wonder if the engine is original?

The car was last started about 3yrs ago but has been parked up around 8 yrs. In that time I changed the coolant once to avoid too much nastiness happening to the cooling system. However my plans were scuppered by the leaking core plug which dropped the fluid level and allowed air in hence when I removed the water pump and stat it is rusty inside the pump and stat housing. Is this an issue? can it be treated/removed or should it just be left alone? Very annoying but my fault!!!

Also when I took the rad out one of the side mounting plates was completely disconnected from the rad! It looks like these are just pop riveted on and fortunately I have the correct dia and length rivets so I can repair it. The rest of the rad looks in OK condition, no signs of leaking. Also it looks like one of the PO's has had a go at putting an electric fan in at some point as it has a retro fitted temp operated switch at the bottom of the rad! That might explain the random relay and unused wiring I found in the vicinity!

[Pete Lewis]

i dont recall or can find any clues that 88c was ever used in UK spec heralds   

it will be in later like 1500 spit as emissions are aided by upping the temperature but never in a herald or anything else triumph 

there are 

  GTS102  74c    hot climates 

 GTS104  82c   all  UK and std 

 GTS106 88c  some usa and cold climates 

Pete

[Tom]

Ok Pete, I'll order an 82deg. Blimey it's always fun going through a car that's had a life!

[Colin Lindsay]

I remember reading somewhere a while back that Darren Groves found he was running a 96 degree thermostat in his car... 😮