DrKai Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Does anyone know?: Looking at the engine front on which of the water ports is inlet/ outlet? Need to make up the adapter plate for ewp Thanks in advance Kai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68vitesse Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Water cooled engines once had convective flow, no pump! Hot water in the radiator cooled, grew more dense and sank to the bottom, drawing more hot water into the top of the rad, and around the system. That's the way to remember it! But you want to know which of those two ports in the front of the head is IN and which is OUT. Look at the back of the OE water pump housing - the port on the right goes up to the thermostat. The port on the left goes down to the water pump. Obviously when you look at the front of the head the positions are reversed! Does that help? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 17 minutes ago, JohnD said: The port on the left goes down to the water pump. Obviously when you look at the front of the head the positions are reversed! Does that help? I'm not sure that really clears it up. I think the port which goes to the thermostat (left when looking at the head) is the output of the pump, and the one that's obviously to the pump is the inlet. The drawing in the 2L WSM, as reproduced by 68Vitesse above, appears to show the opposite - i.e. water goes into the head on the right - but it also shows the pump rotating anti-clockwise, which is wrong. The Herald WSM seems to show water into head on left, although it's hard to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 aha the good olde days of thermo syphon no pumps to leak back then my first side valve Minx had the thermo hsg of the centre of the head left over from earlier but it did have a pump in 53 Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 20 minutes ago, NonMember said: I'm not sure that really clears it up. I think the port which goes to the thermostat (left when looking at the head) is the output of the pump, and the one that's obviously to the pump is the inlet. The drawing in the 2L WSM, as reproduced by 68Vitesse above, appears to show the opposite - i.e. water goes into the head on the right - but it also shows the pump rotating anti-clockwise, which is wrong. The Herald WSM seems to show water into head on left, although it's hard to be sure. Assuming that the water comes into the pump from below - cooler water from the bottom of the radiator which is pumped upwards - then it seems logical for a pump rotating in clockwise rotation to pump water into the first inlet that it comes to ie the one to the left of the head. However in the early Herald this is blocked by a right-turn about an inch in; the other port has a long cooling tube which runs the entire length of the head. It seems more logical to have the water pumped into this tube - called the water delivery tube, part 54 below - so that it is forced out at the rear of the head and finds it's way back through the larger aperture to the left rather than going in on the left against a right-angled restriction and having to be forced / drawn along the cooling tube back to the pump. The uprated 1200 engine did away with the delivery tube but again is it correct to assume the water would still flow the same way; they can't have reversed the flow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Teeth of the gods, non-member, are you purposely confusing the issue? The port to the thermostat takes coolant to the top of the radiator, from where it flows DOWN and back to the pump, which puts it back into the engine, via the other port. If you disagree with that, then ... I had a water pump housing IN MY HAND as I described the ports. I did so, because the "Cooling System" diagram is confusing, and I hoped to make it clear for Dr.Kai, not to let you screw it up even more! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 9 minutes ago, JohnD said: Teeth of the gods, non-member, are you purposely confusing the issue? The port to the thermostat takes coolant to the top of the radiator, from where it flows DOWN and back to the pump, which puts it back into the engine, via the other port. If you disagree with that, then ... To be fair, John, I've reread your post a few times and it doesn't mention how the water goes into the head, or out of it - just to thermostat and water pump. Even your second post still does not say: 'right port in, left port out' so I've had to combine the two, scrolling up and down, to work out that: the port on the right from the back (and therefore left from front view) goes to the thermostat, and the port on the left from back (or right from front view) goes down to the water pump. If the pump 'puts it BACK into the engine, via the other port' and 'the port to the thermostat takes coolant to the top of the radiator', then that last port must be the outlet - therefore the one on the left as you look at the housing from the front, which I'm assuming Dr Kai is doing as he hasn't removed his. So it's in: right and out: left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 44 minutes ago, JohnD said: Teeth of the gods, non-member, are you purposely confusing the issue? Is that how you respond to everyone who isn't 100% clear on exactly what you meant but didn't say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Look, I treat my fellow members as literate adults. That I didn't "mention how the water goes into the head, or out of it - just to thermostat and water pump" is petty. Where else is it to go? I hope Dr.Kai can work out what's what. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 think i will let Prof Stanley Unwin explain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrKai Posted November 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Thanks guys I know you're all trying to help. From what I can gather; we're saying the rectangular port on the right of the engine as you look at it front on should receive the cooled water from the radiator and the irregularly shaped port on the left of the engine as you face it should output hot water to the radiator? ( I will have no thermostat) Thanks Kai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 I dont want to confuse the issue but theres 3 circuits in your system all fed from the pump and back to the pump. These are: to radiator and return, into cylinder head and back, to manifold heater/ interior heater and back. The last two have flow all the time (ok interior heater part can be shut off) and the radiator flow of course is controlled by the thermostat. Thus the rectangular orifice of the cylinder head is for heated water returning to the pump and the irregular shaped port is cooler water coming from the pump. Obviously the water returning from these 3 circuits mixes in the pump with the cooler water returning from the radiator and manifold circuits helping to compensate for the hotter water coming from the cylinder head circuit. This is why if you run without a thermostat the reduced flow resistance in the radiator circuit may mean that less water is then pushed around the other two circuits.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrKai Posted November 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 I think I should explain myself a little clearer. I will not have a heater, a mechanical pump or a thermostat. Simply an ewp from the bottom radiator hose feeding the engine and then hose from engine to radiator via swirl tank. I just need to know which hole to shove the cold water in to!? :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 Irregular in, rectangular out. Depending on your control system Id have thought it would be slower to warm up and there could be a risk of thermal shock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 1 minute ago, johny said: Irregular in, rectangular out. Is that the same for all, Johnny - Heralds / 4 cylinder included? One of those things I never wondered about before; I just fitted the parts and let them work away by themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2500ku-man Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 3 hours ago, NonMember said: Is that how you respond to everyone who isn't 100% clear on exactly what you meant but didn't say? That time of month...... Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: Is that the same for all, Johnny - Heralds / 4 cylinder included? One of those things I never wondered about before; I just fitted the parts and let them work away by themselves... The principal will be the same and certainly the ports arrangement looks very similar too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 That's interesting and surprises my sense of... neatness... or whatever. If you look at my post on early Heralds above then that long tube with the holes in, that runs along the entire 1200 head, would have appeared to me like the end of a sprinkler-hose type thing - water goes in the housing end and is forced out through the holes at regular intervals, to come back out of the head through the port on the left. If the water goes in the left port then it comes out through that pipe, so has to get into it through the small holes along the bottom edge. Even comparing the ports, you're forcing water in through a large port and out through a small. I wonder why? Later heads don't have the pipe at all; I'm assuming from that that it wasn't terribly efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 wonder if its got anything to do with balancing the flows in each circuit? As I say its important not to allow too much water one way so reducing flow elsewhere. Saying that I run my Vitesse with a valve in the rubber hose to the manifold which is usually closed as in warmer weather the time on choke is minimal and I certainly dont need any additional cabin heating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 1 hour ago, johny said: Irregular in, rectangular out. Are you sure? I thought that was what John meant but then realised it clearly wasn't, and the WSM diagram looks the opposite (wrong pump direction notwithstanding) and Colin's observation about early head tubes certainly suggests water goes in the rectangular hole and out the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 No, as John said (and meant) the irregular port on the waterpump housing connects to the underside of the thermostat which is the discharge chamber of the pump so that from here water will go to the radiator (when thermostat opens), into the cylinder head and off by the tapping to the manifold. Then it returns via the rectangular port to the suction chamber behind the pump impeller... The WSM flow diagram is just a sketch to show the principal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 26 minutes ago, johny said: No, as John said (and meant) John, you're being interpreted here, we need you to confirm! 😲 When I wrote the "adding extra confusion" post, I thought the same as you, johny. I even stated that the pump connections were, as you say, "thermostat is the discharge, other to inlet". Then I thought about it and it doesn't make much sense - why would you pump towards the radiator and not through the engine first? The pump is on the cold side so it's pumping relatively cool water. It should pump that into the head, then let the hot water coming out of the head go to the thermostat/radiator. I think the irregular side chamber has only a small drilling to the pump, which is a recirculation bleed for when the thermostat is closed. But I don't have a pump housing in front of me to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 As I explained youre pumping to 3 places at the same time then mixing the return of all 3 in the pump making it the hottest part of the system (alright apart from the water actually in the cylinder head). The overall temperature is controlled by changing the flow through one of the loops, the radiator, using the thermostat. I think theres drilled holes in the water pump housing to ensure the correct flow of water goes to the cylinder head.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrKai Posted November 3, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 My head hurts. I'm on nights so I'll have a look at my pump housing tomorrow. Glad I've sparked some controversy and it's not me being slow. For those concerned about the performance of a system without a thermostat/ mechanical pump I have a pierburg pump as per current performance BMW's and this controller https://www.tecomotive.com/en/products/tinycwa.html. I'm not worried about warm up times as I won't be popping out for a bottle of milk in it. But if it's really bad I may add a water/ oil heat exchanger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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