Vitesse RGW926F

[Wagger]

My son acquired this car Last September and presented it to me as a Birthday present. Originally, it was a 2 Litre overdrive model White with a Blue stripe and had a webasto roof from new) It has detailed history to 1998. After then it is patchy. Somebody removed the original engine gearbox and overdrive and fitted a 2500TC engine but with a non overdrive gearbox. It has been owned by TSSC members before, therefore, does anybody recall anything. It was well looked after until 2000ish. I am attempting to preserve it and use it very soon. Most of it is up and running.

[Pete Lewis]

a photo may jog some memories.

its a bit retrograde to remove an overdrive transmission unless the engine swap included using a big saloon gearbox to go with  the 2.5 torque ??

Pete

 

[Wagger]

Totally agree with Pete Lewis over the engine and door seal posts. I have shaved these down too. Engine swap is very iffy. 12mm too far back and 12mm too high because a vitesse sump was not fitted. All I want to do with this car is preserve it. I am not after more power. Having had two 1600cc vitesses in the 1970's I am familiar with the quirks. When I get my act together, I will post photos. The car should have had a 2500 'box fitted and a taller differential. Drivetrain still is hardly strong enough for the extra torque. After a proper road test soon (having just done the brakes) I'll decide what to do. Would be nice to locate the original engine and drivetrain. I'll post the numbers maybe soon.

[Pete Lewis]

have the mounts been fitted to the back of the turrets instead of in the front that gives you 1/2"

so you really need a flat sump but hammer it to clear the front big engs

for the gearbox  where is the clutch slave..... oil filter side or starter side ???

Pete

[Wagger]

Hi Pete.

Yes, like you, I know what is wrong, the engine mounts are behind the turrets instead of in front. The gearbox rubber mounts are really straining rearwards. I have adjusted the shims a bit to clear carbs and achieved sump clearance too. I suspect that the sump can be 'dented in' between the journals but have not risked doing that until I can check. The Vitesse sumps have a ridge swaged in to clear the rack. They won't fit without beating out to clear the long stroke crank. Clutch slave is next to the clutch pedal. Definitely a Vitesse box. The gearbox cover has been cut away to allow the stick mechanism through. Carpet almost hides it.

I have been battling advanced prostate cancer for 2.5 years and sent that into remission with Chemo and Radiotherapy. The car is my 'Diversion therapy'. However, some of these jobs need strength and stamina, I now lack the latter and have to work in short sharp spells.

The propshaft still has some sliding spline length left and I can drive it. Undoing the work of 'Clowns' will have to wait until the Winter when I will do it all properly. Re-position engine after changing the sump then change the prop, gearbox o/p shaft and fit an overdrive that came with the spares. I did all of this in 1974 to my 1600cc saloon. (Wish that I still had it)

I was just hoping that someone might own up to having the car in the past. At least two owners joined the TSSC. Unfortunately, the first two have departed from this planet. I suspect others have now too.

I have already repaired the outriggers that were crushed by jacks, cured the 'Tub spread', revarnished the wood and am re-stitching the vinyl seats right now. (Can do that indoors whilst it rains and rains).

Thankfully I enjoy working on it as much as driving it.

 

[Clive]

8 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Hi Pete.

Yes, like you, I know what is wrong, the engine mounts are behind the turrets instead of in front. The gearbox rubber mounts are really straining rearwards. I have adjusted the shims a bit to clear carbs and achieved sump clearance too. I suspect that the sump can be 'dented in' between the journals but have not risked doing that until I can check. The Vitesse sumps have a ridge swaged in to clear the rack. They won't fit without beating out to clear the long stroke crank. Clutch slave is next to the clutch pedal. Definitely a Vitesse box. The gearbox cover has been cut away to allow the stick mechanism through. Carpet almost hides it.

I have been battling advanced prostate cancer for 2.5 years and sent that into remission with Chemo and Radiotherapy. The car is my 'Diversion therapy'. However, some of these jobs need strength and stamina, I now lack the latter and have to work in short sharp spells.

The propshaft still has some sliding spline length left and I can drive it. Undoing the work of 'Clowns' will have to wait until the Winter when I will do it all properly. Re-position engine after changing the sump then change the prop, gearbox o/p shaft and fit an overdrive that came with the spares. I did all of this in 1974 to my 1600cc saloon. (Wish that I still had it)

I was just hoping that someone might own up to having the car in the past. At least two owners joined the TSSC. Unfortunately, the first two have departed from this planet. I suspect others have now too.

I have already repaired the outriggers that were crushed by jacks, cured the 'Tub spread', revarnished the wood and am re-stitching the vinyl seats right now. (Can do that indoors whilst it rains and rains).

Thankfully I enjoy working on it as much as driving it.

 

You should pop along to the Sussex meeting, a friendly bunch with some handy people. First Wednesday of the month, Halfway House at Rose Hill (between Lewes and Uckfield) And no, you don't have to arrive in a Triumph. 

[Wagger]

Yes Clive. Kevin Perriman, a near neighbour wth a GT6 told me about those. I do intend to come along and was hoping to do it in the Triumph. Still might.

[Paul H]

2 hours ago, Wagger said:

Hi Pete.

Yes, like you, I know what is wrong, the engine mounts are behind the turrets instead of in front. The gearbox rubber mounts are really straining rearwards. I have adjusted the shims a bit to clear carbs and achieved sump clearance too. I suspect that the sump can be 'dented in' between the journals but have not risked doing that until I can check. The Vitesse sumps have a ridge swaged in to clear the rack. They won't fit without beating out to clear the long stroke crank. Clutch slave is next to the clutch pedal. Definitely a Vitesse box. The gearbox cover has been cut away to allow the stick mechanism through. Carpet almost hides it.

I have been battling advanced prostate cancer for 2.5 years and sent that into remission with Chemo and Radiotherapy. The car is my 'Diversion therapy'. However, some of these jobs need strength and stamina, I now lack the latter and have to work in short sharp spells.

The propshaft still has some sliding spline length left and I can drive it. Undoing the work of 'Clowns' will have to wait until the Winter when I will do it all properly. Re-position engine after changing the sump then change the prop, gearbox o/p shaft and fit an overdrive that came with the spares. I did all of this in 1974 to my 1600cc saloon. (Wish that I still had it)

I was just hoping that someone might own up to having the car in the past. At least two owners joined the TSSC. Unfortunately, the first two have departed from this planet. I suspect others have now too.

I have already repaired the outriggers that were crushed by jacks, cured the 'Tub spread', revarnished the wood and am re-stitching the vinyl seats right now. (Can do that indoors whilst it rains and rains).

Thankfully I enjoy working on it as much as driving it.

 

How difficult was curing the tub spread ?

Paul

[daverclasper]

Hi Wagger and good luck with the car.

Any chance of a photo of the sunroof catch handle please, if it's the original sunroof for that year Vitesse, if not too much trouble.

I'm looking out for Britax for my own Vit from that year, and would like it to be period correct if pos.

Thanks, Dave 

[Wagger]

Reply to Dave first. The britax roof handle is plastic and broken. Has two 'Pips' on a 3/4 inch (approx) PCD circle. It looked like a minature window winder. I will make my own if 'The Trim Company' at Lewes in Sussex do not have one. I will be going there soon to look for one to fit my car. Some were mazac and T' shaped. They do mail order.

Now for Paul.

I used two strong ratchet straps between the door jams at the waist, Tightened them then sat on the straps, The only permanent 'Cure' is to fit a tie bar between the seat belt anchorage points using lifting eye bolts and forget carrying rear passengers. Maybe a roll cage frame would do too if you can find one. Sadly, it will gradually grow apart again. Log term metal fatigue is the cause. Shaving the door seals does help. If you try this, do it a little at a time or you could kink the rear wings at the base of the rear window. Then you will curse me for the suggestion.

[Paul H]

9 hours ago, Wagger said:

Reply to Dave first. The britax roof handle is plastic and broken. Has two 'Pips' on a 3/4 inch (approx) PCD circle. It looked like a minature window winder. I will make my own if 'The Trim Company' at Lewes in Sussex do not have one. I will be going there soon to look for one to fit my car. Some were mazac and T' shaped. They do mail order.

Now for Paul.

I used two strong ratchet straps between the door jams at the waist, Tightened them then sat on the straps, The only permanent 'Cure' is to fit a tie bar between the seat belt anchorage points using lifting eye bolts and forget carrying rear passengers. Maybe a roll cage frame would do too if you can find one. Sadly, it will gradually grow apart again. Log term metal fatigue is the cause. Shaving the door seals does help. If you try this, do it a little at a time or you could kink the rear wings at the base of the rear window. Then you will curse me for the suggestion.

Thanks , how did u attach to the door jambs ? 
Pau

[Paul H]

6 minutes ago, Paul H said:

Thanks , how did u attach to the door jambs ? 
Pau

Sorry forgot to ask if you removed the roof

Paul

[Pete Lewis]

rachet straps idea normally goes over the wing top at the B post but care needed or you can dent the wing waist 

Pete

[Wagger]

Hi Guys. This will be the last post for a while. Grand-kids are here for a holiday/torment.

This should really be in the 'Bodywork' section.

My car is a saloon. I left all assembled and found that my ratchet straps would hook on to the door frames with the seals removed. I tightened two alternately watching for deformation as I proceeded. Nothing bent, to my amazement. When I could not ratchet any tighter (Weak since Chemotherapy) I just sat on them bouncing up and down, I then achieved two more ratchet clicks. You have to go about 4mm more in order for it to stay put. Also, you have to share the errors left and right. Disappointingly, it has spread slightly since doing it just two wees ago. (Ha ! that was meant to be weeks, it ain't hat bad and the wees are too frequent). Therefore, my statement that a tie bar is the only way to stop it. Maybe just ratchet it up when not using it. It might just get to a show without relapsing if that is the intention.

I have left no marks on the door frames. I was surprised just how strong they are. Just make sure that you have good metal to begin with, or deformation may result. You could use long bolts into the door catch plates. Make sure that they are strong and tight.

Not tried this yet but, if your doors need re-skinning, set them flush before welding as they can be twisted easily when separated. 2mm in the length of a door would hardly notice.

[daverclasper]

18 hours ago, Wagger said:

Reply to Dave first. The britax roof handle is plastic and broken. Has two 'Pips' on a 3/4 inch (approx) PCD circle. It looked like a minature window winder. I will make my own if 'The Trim Company' at Lewes in Sussex do not have one. I will be going there soon to look for one to fit my car. Some were mazac and T' shaped. They do mail order.

Thanks for that Wagger. I reckon those are pretty rare nowadays, hardly ever see them for sale. I had that one I think?, in my first car a Herald 12/50, that was scrapped after it's first MOT in my ownership, due to terminal rot. I think the sunroof was pretty good though.

[Wagger]

This bulletin is to impart information mainly. I am not asking for help. However, comments are welcome.

Did some more thorough work and investigation on this Vitesse. The engine runs very nicely, even with the 'Pea shooter' exhaust. That's fine for now as it allowed me to identify the 'Other' noises and sources. I'll fit a bigger one when all else is sorted as the current pipework is a real mix of bores dowm to 1.75 inch o/d in places.

The 2500TC engine is fitted so that the rack is halfway between cranks one and two. The recess in the Vitesse sump is between number three and four cranks, in fact, where the journal is. (That made perfect sense as designed)

It has a Vitesse backplate and bell housing but the gearbox is a three rail 306468 type fitted to early Dolomites and late GT6's apparently. I will have to establish the ratios by turning and counting revolutions.

As a result, the gearstick enters the car 1.25 inches rearward off centre with the carpet. In fact, the prop flange is where it would be on a normal overdrive model. I had to drill new holes for the gearbox mounting plate in order to relieve the stresses on the gearbox rubber mounts. This plate is now 5/8 inch rearward of the original holes.

The plus's are that the gearbox is quite a strong one and the 2500 sump does just clear the steering rack, by a mere 3mm. Canting the engine slightly to the right by using the stock shims has given enough clearance for the front carb too.

The engine mounts used are assymetric, so allow up to 3/4 inch of rearward movement of the engine. However, I believe that the mounts to the block have also been reversed. There is not much room between rocker cover and heater box. (Still cannot get my camera working properly, sorry!).

The downside is that the overdrive will never fit unless the main chassis is modified. I can live without an overdrive because Eastbourne has very few dual carriageways and most drives will be on 'A' or 'B' roads.

When I have checked the ratios, I will decide what diff to fit. A wider ratio box and a taller diff would be acceptable for me. I'll carry the overdrive in the boot just to comply with the badging!

Changing sump and shifting everything back is a long job and may still result in not being able to fit it.

Currently (apart from the seat stitching I am working on brake balance and the rear drive shaft UJ's. Now that the exhaust has an actual 'Silencer' they are sounding really scary. Luckily, the spares box contained a matched pair of front calipers already serviced. Somebody really loved this car! I have managed about ten miles so far testing it and it is really nice to drive, Maybe roadworthy as early as next week if I can change those UJ's easily.

[Clive]

21 minutes ago, Wagger said:

This bulletin is to impart information mainly. I am not asking for help. However, comments are welcome.

Did some more thorough work and investigation on this Vitesse. The engine runs very nicely, even with the 'Pea shooter' exhaust. That's fine for now as it allowed me to identify the 'Other' noises and sources. I'll fit a bigger one when all else is sorted as the current pipework is a real mix of bores dowm to 1.75 inch o/d in places.

The 2500TC engine is fitted so that the rack is halfway between cranks one and two. The recess in the Vitesse sump is between number three and four cranks, in fact, where the journal is. (That made perfect sense as designed)

It has a Vitesse backplate and bell housing but the gearbox is a three rail 306468 type fitted to early Dolomites and late GT6's apparently. I will have to establish the ratios by turning and counting revolutions.

As a result, the gearstick enters the car 1.25 inches rearward off centre with the carpet. In fact, the prop flange is where it would be on a normal overdrive model. I had to drill new holes for the gearbox mounting plate in order to relieve the stresses on the gearbox rubber mounts. This plate is now 5/8 inch rearward of the original holes.

The plus's are that the gearbox is quite a strong one and the 2500 sump does just clear the steering rack, by a mere 3mm. Canting the engine slightly to the right by using the stock shims has given enough clearance for the front carb too.

The engine mounts used are assymetric, so allow up to 3/4 inch of rearward movement of the engine. However, I believe that the mounts to the block have also been reversed. There is not much room between rocker cover and heater box. (Still cannot get my camera working properly, sorry!).

The downside is that the overdrive will never fit unless the main chassis is modified. I can live without an overdrive because Eastbourne has very few dual carriageways and most drives will be on 'A' or 'B' roads.

When I have checked the ratios, I will decide what diff to fit. A wider ratio box and a taller diff would be acceptable for me. I'll carry the overdrive in the boot just to comply with the badging!

Changing sump and shifting everything back is a long job and may still result in not being able to fit it.

Currently (apart from the seat stitching I am working on brake balance and the rear drive shaft UJ's. Now that the exhaust has an actual 'Silencer' they are sounding really scary. Luckily, the spares box contained a matched pair of front calipers already serviced. Somebody really loved this car! I have managed about ten miles so far testing it and it is really nice to drive, Maybe roadworthy as early as next week if I can change those UJ's easily.

I built a 2.5 vitesse from scratch years ago, so can offer some pointers.

(1) use a std vitesse sump, and dent it to clear journals 1+2. Doesn't take much. I used a blowtorch and ball pein hammer

(2) fit the engine in the std position, it will make everything else so much easier

(3) Use a std vitesse mk2 exhaust, the canleys one is very good and not noisy.

(4) The 3.89 diff will make the car nuts to drive with no OD, and first gear is just about redundant. I initially use 3.27 diff, but as they kept breaking moved to a 3.63. This was with overdrive, and made for a good all rounder. 3.27 was better, but after 3 or 4 I just gave up. With 3.63 you can be in overdrive top from 40mph

(4) UJs tend to click if worn. If screeching it may be the wheel bearing, which on a non-rotoflex car means the shaft is scrap too. You cannot feel the bearing wear until the spring is disconnected.

[johny]

I believe all GT6, Vitesse (2L) and Dolomite 1850 gearboxes had the same ratios. The strongest of these was the single rail from the last of the 1850 but its not a direct swop for the 3 rail. The serial number stamped on the top face of the main case should confirm which unit you have...

[Wagger]

The gearbox is the early three rail one. The car does 35+ in first gear, so, probably a close ratio box. I have seen a chart with at least three different ratios listed. The current diff is the 3.89:1 version. Engine shifted rearwards causes less of a problem in the engine bay. I do not have the strength or stamina since chemotherapy to shift all of that heavy stuff. Grovelling on the floor is way too tiring. I will enjoy it as it is. It ain't broke so I won't fix it. I can walk tem milles a day, but up and down off the floor is really too much. Might even get another bod to do those uj's or remove them so I can do the bench work.

[Clive]

9 hours ago, Wagger said:

The gearbox is the early three rail one. The car does 35+ in first gear, so, probably a close ratio box. I have seen a chart with at least three different ratios listed. The current diff is the 3.89:1 version. Engine shifted rearwards causes less of a problem in the engine bay. I do not have the strength or stamina since chemotherapy to shift all of that heavy stuff. Grovelling on the floor is way too tiring. I will enjoy it as it is. It ain't broke so I won't fix it. I can walk tem milles a day, but up and down off the floor is really too much. Might even get another bod to do those uj's or remove them so I can do the bench work.

http://www.mintylamb.co.uk/gearspeed/

That is the best site for gearing etc. Written by a triumph owner, ratios will be correct. 

[johny]

I prefer the richyrichracing.com calculator as although it supposedly uses the same data it doesnt have the error that the mintylamb site has. This is the 1st gear ratio of the Vitesse gearbox which mintylamb shows is the same for the 1600 and 2L and thats incorrect, it should be 1 : 2.65...

[Clive]

15 minutes ago, johny said:

I prefer the richyrichracing.com calculator as although it supposedly uses the same data it doesnt have the error that the mintylamb site has. This is the 1st gear ratio of the Vitesse gearbox which mintylamb shows is the same for the 1600 and 2L and thats incorrect, it should be 1 : 2.65...

Good spot. The GT6 ratio is correct though. I will drop him a message.

[ahebron]

This is what I used to pull the tub spread in on my Vitesse 6

4 ton hydraulics, fixed to the door lock and seatbelt fixings on the pillars and seatbelts mountings in the centre with a brace to the handbrake to keep it upright
A bit more complicated than straps around the tub but more controllable per side, I have push ram as well incase I over pulled.
It might not work for others but it did the job for me and was made from scrap steel.

Adrian

[Colin Lindsay]

How much to post it to me?

[Paul H]

21 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

How much to post it to me?

I’ll go halve’s 

Paul