Rust Remover and Rust Converters which is best

[Eric Smith]

Hi guys - a request for opinions please?

I have been restoring 8 inch brake back plates recently, both plates were badly corroded but salvageable - I used several types rust remover hoping to make the work easier, two of the rust removers were fluid the other was a pink jelly - with all three I had mixed results, I was not impressed.

In the end I resorted to abrasives and wire wheels to do the hard work then used rust remover before re painting both backplates

My question is - in your opinion which is best, old fashioned hard work, a remover or a converter and if you are happy to say - which make of rust remover or converter?

Eric

[JohnD]

All those rust treatments use phosphoric acid, that reacts with rust to turn it into an insoluble coating.  Trouble is, on thick rust it treats the surface hut not what's under that.  Always better to remove as much rust as poss first.

Alternative technology is 'Evaporust' that dissolves the rust.   Just takes longer with thick rust.   OR, electrolysis.   An old-fashioned battery charger,  connect the rusty part to NEGATIVE and positive to some scrap iron, in a bath of baking soda.  Most effective!

John9

[DanMi]

for largeish non critical parts, I put them in a bath of brick cleaner acid (HCL). Completely dissolves the rust though does need a good rinse and will flash rust very quickly, so I then treat with a phosphoric acid product

[ed.h]

About 20% Phosphoric acid for a few hours, then a wire brush.  Not a branded rust remover.  The bucket wasn't big enough to do the whole thing in one go.

Ed

 

[Peter Truman]

After doing similar we then painted the manifold with BBQ Black and then put it in the BBQ at 140C for half an hour to bake it's still good! Wife wouldn't let me use oven?

[Colin Lindsay]

Sandblasting is the best way to remove all rust; I've found that any other kind of treatment works for a while then the rust comes through again. Once blasted I coat the metal with Rustoleum Rustreformer paint, claimed to be 'Straight to Rust' so I always hoped that if it can be sprayed over rust and 'encapsulate' that it should work better over bare metal. After that, the topcoat. Manifolds have been coated with the PJ1 Fastblack exhaust and manifold paint for motorbikes which gives a matt black finish and never seems to burn off. 

[Mjit]

Wire brush/wheel to get the loose stuff off then use Bilt Hamber Deox-Gel.

Had a bottle on the shelf for a few years and never needed to use it - till I replaced the windscreen on my Spitfire and found rust starting to nibble at the seam in one corner.  Instructions are something like wire wheel the loose stuff off, apply gel (which stays where you put it) and leave for a bit, wire wheel the gel.  None of the black surface you get with 'rust converters' like Kurust but shiny metal.

[fungus]

Said it before and still think it's the best. Used it on cars, tractors, mowers, trailer s and the canal boat for years. never had to do the same thing twice. Brilliant stuff.

Just ordered another litre 

Fertan 

https://www.fertan.co.uk/

[Eric Smith]

Thanks for the information guys, I will look at all of your ideas and suggestions, it seems there are more than one way to kill off rust.

I have watched videos on youtube where people have used all sorts of methods to remove corrosion, but you never really know if the results are 100% accurate - it was good to get unbiased information.

One tip I can offer, I borrowed my partner’s ultrasonic jewellery cleaning machine and it did not remove rust but it did remove gunk on some small parts- I have a plan to try the same machine with some fine sand to see if the vibrations do anything to screws and other small parts - what could possibly go wrong?

Thanks again

Eric

[Roger]

I recommend to always download the safety data sheet (SDS) for these magic rust removers. Not sure if Brexit has changed the legal requirements in the UK but here it is a legal requirement that the seller must provide a SDS according to ECHA standards. In section 3.1 they have to inform what chemicals they have mixed and %. Quite ofthen it is just phosporus or citrus acid plus plenty of water. I could not find a SDS for Fertan using the link above. If they are in Europe that means they are breaking the law, but Brexit might have changed the rules in the UK. I use 24% vinegar a lot, about 3£ for a litre in the local grocery store. It works great! One litre of Fertan costs 27£. It also make sense to have a look at the SDS for your own safety.

 

Edited August 25 by Roger

[Eric Smith]

Hi Roger - white vinegar never crossed my mind, I was thinking about chemicals in black bottles, never something as simple as vinegar.

I use white and malt vinegar - I use it for light cleaning copper and brass, I have even used tomato sauce (containing vinegar) to do the same job and I make up a concoction of white or malt vinegar mixed with salt making a fluid to soak off heavy copper tarnish.

Here is the dur moment - I know if I get wads of wire wool and leave them soaking in a sealed in a container in malt vinegar till all the “the metal dissolves” - I can make lovely wood stain which turns new wood grey as if it’s been weathered for years - done that lots of times, got some on a shelf. Did you notice the words “devolves metal”.

Thanks Roger 

[fungus]

I make a lot of Vinegar from an over production of Cider. I have used it mixed with a little baking soda to clean loads of stuff from windows to car parts and find it brilliant for getting it to the difficult areas when dealing with fiddly bits, I used it on our window latches and they come up a treat, removing 20years+ of grime and oxidation. you do have to be careful not to leave it soaking for to long as discolouring can happen, and you must wash it off well when done. But generaly it works well. and you can store it (in glass jars/bottles) not in a metal tin as I done on the first go. 🤔

heres some phots of my first trial with it.

(Just reread my post and that should have been 90 years + as these current windows where put in during a house remodeling in 1932 (not by me....not that old) I just remade and repaired the lead lights)

Back to the thread 😁😁

 

On the Fertan subject, the Composition is listed under the patent tab.

phosphoric acid     2.5% by weight

Zn phosphate        1.5% by weight

Zn nitrate         11.0% by weight

quercetin derivative of a  22.0% by weight

monogalloylellagic acid isopropyl alcohol, propylene 25.0% by weight

glycol, ethoxypropanol ascorbic acid       0.2% by weight

water              37.8% by weight

 

How ever it's the way you prep and apply and the results that I have had with that product that I find so good.

Edited August 30 by fungus

[Colin Lindsay]

5 minutes ago, fungus said:

How ever it's the way you prep and apply and the results that I have had with that product that I find so good.

Was watching Henry Cole again yesterday morning; they bought that huge maroon fuel dispenser cabinet and were restoring it. It surprised me a bit when they wirebrushed it PRIOR to shotblasting which Henry claimed got into every crevice - wouldn't the shotblasting do that? - then blasted the entire cabinet, brass taps and all. It was only when Henry claimed they'd discovered that the brass taps and badges had a dull, rough  finish so they wouldn't be polishing them that I realised he'd made a slight mistake in not masking it all off, and so had seriously pitted the taps... closeups of the 'finished' article showed it looking like a dog's dinner. Poor preparation, especially in masking before spraying, left a lot of areas looking terrible.. AND he wanted £1000 for it?

[Eric Smith]

Hi guys

When I started this string I hoped that the members of this forum would help me find information on the rust removal products I could use on my projects.

I am guilty of seeing a product on a shelf and hoping it is going to be the best thing ever, sadly experience says, it’s always down to luck and a little judgment.

Expecting advice to use car accessory shop, off the shelf black bottles was my first mistake, so far every piece of advice has been different and informative, for instance I had never heard about or seen Fertan?

I have never purchased items like phosphoric acid even though I had used it years ago, I thought it would be a product I would not be able to buy. When Fungus took the time to detail all of the chemicals etc in Fertan I for one would not know where to start if I wanted to make a concoction like it.

When I was a school the boys did physics and the girls bid chemistry - don’t know why, but I do know you need to know how to mix chemicals the right way and I am no chemist so I will look out for it the next time I go in our local farm supply company warehouse.

To everyone - thanks for your advice and help, you guys are the best!

Eric

 

[fungus]

10 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

 closeups of the 'finished' article showed it looking like a dog's dinner. Poor preparation, especially in masking before spraying, left a lot of areas looking terrible.. AND he wanted £1000 for it?

I know the one you mean,  it would have looked better if they just cleaned it

[Eric Smith]

Hi Guys

The one thing I cannot understand about Henry Cole’s show is - what people buy?

When many of us are trying to get rid of our junk to make more room or downsize, there are people buying 1960’s petrol pumps as decoration along with prewar petrol cans, oil jugs, Redx dispensers, signage, old oil cans - the list is endless, where do they keep this stuff?

I don’t know if off camera Henry and his people make different deals or they buy to order or if he is just lucky, but most times he sells his stuff or keeps it himself.

My wish would be to tap into some of the people who buy his stuff because I would look around for junk and sell it to them!

Eric

Edited August 28 by Eric Smith
Typo

[Pete Lewis]

dont you get the feeling most TV sponsored shows be they antiques ,collectors fairs that the deal is done for the show and a 

mug goes round after to top up the supposed discounted offers 

its all a bit fake who's ever show it is 

dont ask the costs behind the scenes of the likes of the SOS  rebuilds .

even the repair shop has to have some long lost smashed article with a sob story 

its getting a bit tired   or im just getting old 

Pete

 

Edited August 28 by Pete Lewis

[Colin Lindsay]

I've just watched the two (at least) Northern Ireland episodes - in the first, the man has been hoarding since he was 14 and is now 70, and the sheds were just piles of junk and rubbish on top of more junk and rubbish. How can you even enjoy that, when you can't even access most of it? Furthermore he was asking a phenomenal price for everything, pound signs in the eyes, yet the stuff is just lying there rotting away, not even protected from vermin or the elements. That's a sign of a deeper disorder, hoarding for the sake of hoarding as you believe you're accumulating wealth. A lot of the sheds they visit are surrounded by machinery - lawnmowers, trailers, old tractors - all rusting away. It seems like an inability to part with things that may be worth a few pounds, even if they never will be. I have a few items of automobilia around the garage and at least I appreciate them and get to handle them, but to have shed after shed of stuff that you've let rust or get covered in cobwebs, and that you won't even sell to have them preserved for future generations seems to me to be a complete waste.

[Eric Smith]

Hi again

Hoarding is more often than not an illness because many if not most of the things people hoard never reach a value where they make money or they get to such a state they are worth nothing - but the big one is - they die emotionally attached to junk which someone else has to get rid.

As to the TV shows, Pete, sadly like the rest of us you are getting older but you are not wrong I stopped watching The Repair Shop, The Antiques Road Show and Car SOS because I could no longer cope with them.

This is a subject area I could write about for hours! But I won’t.

TTFN

Eric

Edited August 28 by Eric Smith

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Eric Smith said:

This is a subject area I could write about for hours! But I won’t.

TTFN

Eric

Start a thread on it and we will. I love a good debate which sadly ends up with massive thread drift on some poor soul's query. Even yours, here!

Having cleared out two houses recently I know all too well that one person's treasure becomes another's junk, and sentimental value means absolutely nothing.

[DVD3500]

🚨Thread drift!

I tend to agree with most of the Wheeler Dealer clones. When Ed China did the alignment on a car with a "laser guided system" he just had lying around I started only watching episodes of models I was interested in... I mean come on... laser guided alignment system just "lying around"....
Only Flipping Bangers comes remotely close to the way most of us actually  would do things. I mean, they have failed to make money on cars a handful of times and even ended up crushing one after it literally fell apart on the lift. That sure sounds like most of my business endeavors !

I still have a soft spot for Car SOS. The things some of the people have been through are absolutely shocking and it puts a lot of things that aren`t going great in my life into perspective.

There was a Reddit or some interweb thingee where the production team did say that the rebuilds on the show are always 5 figures. The panel beating alone has got to be 10k per car in most cases...

Tim`s antics can be annoying but given that they have had at least 2 people die before the restoration is done and at least as many die shortly after a little levity is nice.

Personally I liked learning about powder coating, laser rust removal and acid dipping... these are all things I have had done to my Spitfire...

See.. I kind of got it back on track in the end. 🙂

 

 

[Blakes73]

On 24/08/2024 at 14:13, fungus said:

Said it before and still think it's the best. Used it on cars, tractors, mowers, trailer s and the canal boat for years. never had to do the same thing twice. Brilliant stuff.

Just ordered another litre 

Fertan 

https://www.fertan.co.uk/

Totally agree and very affordable.