Pete Lewis Posted August 10, 2019 Report Share Posted August 10, 2019 we await with interest. sounds promising Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2019 Ok, done a couple of tests over the past few weeks and here are the results to pick over. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't weld and have been put on to various structural adhesive/epoxy weld/chemical bond (glue !!!) products. The main one I have tried is marketed by 'Fastmover' who do a lot of stuff in the auto refinishing trade. The product is their FMT630 6 MMA 2 Part Structural Bond. It was mixed manually, that is not using the prescribed mixing nozzle, so the mixed adhesive is probably not as well mixed as it would be with the proper nozzle. Anyway the first example is two sheets of scrap 1.2mm galvanised roofing sheet which were bonded face to face and lightly held in a vice until set. You can see the excess glue along the angle of the join. The two sheets were then bent backwards and forwards and twisted effectively a test which a bond would not have to tolerate under normal circumstances. After about 50 bends the metal started to show signs of fatigue and after about 100.. well you can see, it tore along one side. The other side is badly bent/distorted. The joint itself is still intact except for the bottom right hand corner where there was not as much adhesive and the corner has started to lift away. It appears to good to be true. So, after that I tried the same with some aluminium angle and a piece of 1mm metal, in fact a piece that had been cut from the bonnet repair (in the photo posted earlier) and the rust roughly cleaned up. This repair plate had been badly spot welded originally and came off the car with a gentle tap from a hammer. Same manual mix and light clamp in the vice. Same bending and twisting One side.... the other... same torn metal with no breaking of the bond this time. Initial tests look very impressive at this stage. The next test is to put both pieces in the vice and try impacting them and then if the bond is still intact, try to separate them with a hammer and chisel. I have no doubt that there will be comment that you can't beat welding metal, but when you consider the actual 'grab' area of a weld (spot/stitch/seam) compared with the area of contact of the adhesive bond (plus no heat distortion, weakening of the metal, poor technique), this has to be a good starting point, especially for someone like me who doesn't weld. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2019 So, with a mad desire to attack something with a hammer (to many posts on this forum perhaps) I got hold of my two adhesive samples and beat h*ll out of them with a hammer, fully expecting the adhesive to part company. This was the steel on steel sample after being pretty much straightened out after the bending tests (note the impact marks in the steel)... and the other side... absolutely amazed that it is still in one piece. So on to the steel and aluminium piece... same thing. Would not part company. So with the desire to destroy the test I put the steel on steel into the vice and attempted to bend it through 90 degrees... .. it has just started to part company in the circled area, but still in one piece.... So, before I take a chisel to the two tests, is there anything that any of you would like me to try in the way of beating, crushing or otherwise grossly abusing my test pieces before I try the ultimate destruction on them. The one thing I cannot do is the subject them to any sort of test to pull them directly apart. This has been a very interesting time as this 'structural bond' stuff has proved stronger than the original welds that were holding some of the repair metalwork in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 12, 2019 Report Share Posted August 12, 2019 You mean you cant fix an eye bolt on the house wall and a rope on the car for a tug of war test Or a line round the lamp post and drive off Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2019 I'm sure that it will come apart then, just worried about where the ends would go and at what speed. Although I could get a bill from the Council if it pulls over the lamp post. I still remember those Solvite ads with the bloke glued under the plane or helicopter or whatever. Seriously, can you think of anything else to test them with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 12, 2019 Report Share Posted August 12, 2019 Bit of a dream but one end in a vice and moles the other end and scafold pole / timber to make a lever to stretch it Somehow Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2019 What about something with a torque wrench? What sort of foot/lb are we talking of here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted August 12, 2019 Report Share Posted August 12, 2019 30 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: Bit of a dream but one end in a vice and moles the other end and scafold pole / timber to make a lever to stretch it Somehow Pete That method of enlargement never works, Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 Ha ! We need someone involved in aircraft production testing to do a proper tensile test Ground anchor , block and tackle and giant fishing scales should do . Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 I agree. There are numerous test videos on youtube using different sorts of adhesive. I would like to test it more scientifically myself but don't have the kit. The tests I've seen and done are impressive, some adhesive bonds appear much stronger than welding which suits me, but there is a lot of 'snake oil' out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 Well if it goes wrong you cant fall out the sky like an aircraft Its a well used process think you are on a winner here, Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 I have a test idea based on a video I have seen along with the method posted earlier to test a torque wrench by moving a known weight along a metal bar. I will pursue and report accordingly. I would value any comments from the 'techys' on the forum before I start using the stuff on the actual car. I know many will not be in favour of bonding but I would like to hear the 'down side' or any other views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 the down side is your test weight will drop on your foot for attaching non stressed zones it must be a good practical solution, and as you rightly say far more area than a handful of spot welds which were cheap and effective in their day . we dont have any triumph drawings to see are there any safety critical welds in BIW build . Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 I have found two lengths of old box section 3/4" square steel tube. Actually old table legs. Very heavy duty steel that won't bend which should suffice for this test. I have bonded them together in an area about 3/4" square at right angles so the bonded area should be very hard stressed when I come to weight it, unlike the sheet metal which is flexible. I will leave it 48 hours to cure thoroughly and then put one piece in the vice and weight the other one, moving the weigh further out, making sure of wearing the steel toecap boots. I don't think this will take anything like the strain, but it will be interesting to see the result. I could be booking the mobile welder after all. I did read somewhere on the net that the actually penetrated area of a welded joint is very little compared with a bonded one. No doubt someone will give the actual figures, expected strength per foot pound etc, but I just want it to hold together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 41 minutes ago, Badwolf said: but I just want it to hold together. I presume you never want to take it apart again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 the kitchen wonky table will never be the same again Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 44 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: I presume you never want to take it apart again? The bit I'm bonding, no 44 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: the kitchen wonky table will never be the same again Pete What kitchen wonky table? Currently in bits under the Spitfire where I can't fall over it. Is this where we cue the wonky donkey joke or shall I move it to the joke thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 dont move anything , were all glued to this exercise Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 Thank you. I was actually hoping to keep some of this serious... some hope!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppyman Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 I dont know about anyone else Badwolf but i'm sticking with you. Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iana Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 Badwolf, watching with interest, I can't / don't weld so an adhesive solution if it works would suit me. I'm guessing it would never be complete replacement to welding but itd have its uses - I was thinking something like footwell floor repair panels etc - would it require mechanical fixings as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 I've seen Series 3 Landy floors glued in place; they're just flat metal set onto an outer ledge anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 I was speaking with a friend last night who works with steel/special metals in the aircraft industry. He expressed surprise that I was worried about the whole idea as it appears that there are numerous chemical bonding methods being used in industry instead of welding. He had a look at the samples and told me they looked fine, apart from the abuse that I had given them in bending them. The same reasons for use were put forward that I mentioned earlier, greater area of bonding contact, no metal distortion/change of structure due to heat, no problem of weld penetration, no danger from sparks/flash/glare, ease of use, the list was quite long. I was really very surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iana Posted August 14, 2019 Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 Im guessing the tricky bit is diguising the joints, a seam welded patch would be gound back and the repair would be near invisible, with the adhesive there would be a lap joint to conceal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted August 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2019 Iana - You can grind/sand back the adhesive when cured. With some seam sealent/skim of filler/2k primer, it should be invisible. Welded patches - invisible !!! You should see some of the welded repairs that were done on mine previously and one abomination was done by a professional garage (yes, the one mentioned pages back, who did the leaf spring c*ck-up, it was done at the same time to get it throught the MOT) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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