Copper head gasket

[haggis]

Hi all, just about to do a compression test on my 1600 vitesse, can anyone confirm what a good reading should be? 

I know it has an old copper head gasket on it,, can you reuse this type of gasket? I seem to remember reusing it about twenty years ago as it looked better than the press steel ones. 

Thanks

hag 

 

[RogerH]

Hi Haggis,

                    the comp numbers are not absolute - too many variables.  Look for high 100's (eg 170)  more importantly they should all be within a few PSI of each other (eg 5%)

Is it a solid copper gasket or a copper fibre composite..

If solid copper they can be annealed and used again.

If composite, then once only.

 

Roger

[johny]

Dont forget that if you do get a low reading putting a little oil in through the sparkplug hole and repeating the test can help indicate if its a valve/gasket problem or worn bores/piston rings. Also these engines arent particularly prone to head gasket failures so as long as the surfaces are in good condition and the correct replacement procedure is followed you shouldnt have any problems....

[Pete Lewis]

Wowwww     the   1600 has a quite thin  steel shim gasket never copper or composite 

eg  208652    

2ltr  have copper or comp H gaskets  not the 1600

always use Heavy duty nuts and washers on all head studs  to avoid torque relaxing by deformation

a  thicker  copper gasket will reduce the compression ratio,

think we took 3mm off the Vit6  head face to make it a flyer.

 

just some thoughts   

Pete

[haggis]

Great responses, thanks everyone. 

In regards to the compression test, I’m assuming if a little oil in the chamber improves the test results then it’s the rings, correct? 

It was nearly 20 years ago when I did the head last, so can’t 100% remember copper or copper composite, but it was definitely copper coloured. I’ll take a pic when I get it apart, seems a shame to do it in the sunshine especially as it’s a convertible, might get delayed by a few months. 

Pete, was the skimming all you did to improve performance or did you change cams, carbs etc? 

Thanks again 

hag 

[JohnD]

No, haggis.    The 'oil test' will always improve compression, by making the rings seal better.      If it doesn't improve compression, then you have a leaky valve.

John

[johny]

Can I ask Haggis why youre so keen to get the head off?

[Pete Lewis]

Hag,  she was bored to +0.060" so a tiny few  more CC than normal 

solex off    CDS 150 strombergs  on2ltr Mk1  manifold   

pheonix  6-3-1 on  club  semi sports single pipe for herald /1600 fitted into 2"  pipes  (the  twin wheel barrow sound like a hair drier )

this concoction sings  to die for 

ram pipes inside the std filter

std  1600 needles 

std cam

std dizzy

aldon electronic  unit

brake servo

gt6   type 16 calipers and discs

3.89 diff ratio

high output Overdrive pump.

and all sorts of other odds and sods

she would out perform my mates TR7  and was quite hairy for what ever reason 

never on a rolling road to confirm just what she made 

Pete

 

[haggis]

Hi guys, thanks again for your input. 

To Johny: I have an oil consumption issue that I’m trying to improve, I think it’s rings, hence the compression test. Whichever option valves or rings, the head will need to be removed. I got oily crusty plugs and Smoking on start up when warm. I was tempted to look at the head first as it’s the easier option. I’ve looked at the breathing side of things and I’ve had the vehicle 30 years and every year it gets worse. Dipstick full to halfway in 180 miles, couple of minor leaks each end of the crank. 

To Pete: sounds like easy mods, mine’s late so has the Strombergs already, semi sports exhaust, just missing the manifold. 

Sounds like the head skim had an effect too, food for thought as the heads likely to be coming off.

Thanks

hag  

 

 

[johny]

That sounds reasonable. How many miles has it done? Anyway let us know what you find and how the work turns out......

[RogerH]

Hi Haggis,

obviously you need to sort any external oil leaks.

Your high consumption could also be due to inlet valve guides being worn.

Do not fill the sump to the high mark. Run it at 1/2 to min marker. Sounds daft but it works on the TR's.

Do your comp test and let that guide you.

 

Roger

[dave.vitesse]

Haggis, For reference the 1600 compression is 160 with the standard 8.75.1 head.

When the makers changed over from the Solex to Strombergs carbs in late 1965 it reduced the zero to 80 by 13 sec and push the top speed up into the lower 90's.

Dave

[Paul H]

1 minute ago, dave.vitesse said:

Haggis, For reference the 1600 compression is 160 with the standard 8.75.1 head.

When the makers changed over from the Solex to Strombergs carbs in late 1965 it reduced the zero to 80 by 13 sec and push the top speed up into the lower 90's.

Dave

Dave , what’s the standard compression for the Mk2 Vitesse ?

Paul

[Paul H]

2 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi Haggis,

obviously you need to sort any external oil leaks.

Your high consumption could also be due to inlet valve guides being worn.

Do not fill the sump to the high mark. Run it at 1/2 to min marker. Sounds daft but it works on the TR's.

Do your comp test and let that guide you.

 

Roger

I found this works on my Mk2 Vitesse so now fill between the marks 

Paul 

[dave.vitesse]

41 minutes ago, Paul H said:

Dave , what’s the standard compression for the Mk2 Vitesse ?

Paul

Paul, Mk2 = 9.25.1. Mk1 ( 2Litre) = 9.5.1

 

Dave

[Paul H]

5 minutes ago, dave.vitesse said:

Paul, Mk2 = 9.25.1. Mk1 ( 2Litre) = 9.5.1

 

Dave

How do you then calculate the standard psi ? 

Paul 

[dave.vitesse]

36 minutes ago, Paul H said:

How do you then calculate the standard psi ? 

Paul 

Sorry I didn't answer the question correctly. Mk2 = 165 - 170.

It,s not just the CR its also depended on the Cam lift and overlap. I am lucky I guess in having some of the factory figures. Too many years playing with Triumphs !

Dave 

[Pete Lewis]

Have you checked the gauze between the crankcase and breather tube is clear ???

You  can get a base psi  its  the comp ratio x atmospheric 

All affected by the starter cranking speed and throttles and dampers wide open ( need to let the air in easy)

This all makes  some wide variances in a test results .

Pete

 

Pete

[GT6M]

Cat amongst Pidgeons time me tinks

 

comp test, some folk turn engine owa say 6 or 8 times, and watch  readings creep higher

wid every comp stroke

this t,me is useless, it gives ye a false feeling yer CR good

 

what is the most important thing, is the first jump oft needle,

if it hardly moves, then doo it agen, as it was likely on comp stroke t,set of wid,

 

Whenst yer engines running, it dont get 6 or 8 goes t,get compressionee up befoer plug fires now does it,

if it did, it would be going like a rocket

 

If it jumps t,say 100 PSI on first jump, then its got good cr

 

Best way t,doo a comp test is a running comp test

this can show all sorts of things amiss if throttles are  blipped, snapped,  WOT,d, and, idles.

 

Idle should be about same as static test on first jump

 

read an digest

http://imperialclub.com/Repair/Engine/dynamic.htm

 

there loadsa other out there, even You tube

 

Ohh, if it is down a wee bit, give it some stik,

around max torque,  hold it there in top gear,  WOT, either up a steep hill, or wid brakes on,

at least  5/6 times or a mile or so distance , really give it some stik

the pressure generated in cyls will blow alot of crap away, and will get behint the rings and maybe force

em into walls t,clean glaze off, or re bed a turned ring, yes they doo move aboot alot.

 

M

[haggis]

Thanks guys for all your comments, I’ve just completed the compression as stated on packaging  5-10seconds of turning over and got these results. 

All cylinders at 138psi standard, except no 1 at 142psi. With a squirt of oil in each cylinder  1-148, 2+3- 150, 4+5 - 142, 6-140. Looking in my manual it says between 9 & 10 kg/cm2, so it looks spot on according to the gauge on the tester or Is GT6m’s approach better? On every turn The gauge read higher. I did follow your advice gt6m for the Italian tune up but didn’t do the test before so no idea if it worked or not. 

Thanks

hag. 

[johny]

They dont sound bad at all. Ok its not a new engine but no worse than mine and my oil consumption is fine so whats the next step? Possible worn valve guides?

[Pete Lewis]

Per chance its not got an external rocker oil  feed fitted has it ???

and the 1600 is well under stressed  doesnt suffer bore wear , 

is there any oil  from dip sticks or filler breathers etc.

pete

[haggis]

Hi Jonny/ Pete. Definitely no rocker oil feed fitted, and doesn’t appear to be oil from anywhere, I cleaned all the breathers out, the only place is the tiny hole in the filler cap that weeps a little. There are little leaks from both ends of the crank, and there is oil to the rear of the engine, dizzy side from head down. 

Next step has got to be cylinder head removal, check valve guides (I hear there are ones with seals somewhere?)  and head gasket replacement, sounds like I may have missed the little oil hole that needs sealing on the head gasket. 

Thanks

hag 

[DanMi]

the pushrod tubes on the early engines have a habit of leaking as well making the dizzy side oily. I sealed in in using a socket with a step to swage the ends and some loctite green (the wicking type) (1200 spit engine). On mine it looked a lot of oil but didn't notice on the dipstick

[johny]

9 hours ago, haggis said:

Hi Jonny/ Pete. Definitely no rocker oil feed fitted, and doesn’t appear to be oil from anywhere, I cleaned all the breathers out, the only place is the tiny hole in the filler cap that weeps a little. There are little leaks from both ends of the crank, and there is oil to the rear of the engine, dizzy side from head down. 

Next step has got to be cylinder head removal, check valve guides (I hear there are ones with seals somewhere?)  and head gasket replacement, sounds like I may have missed the little oil hole that needs sealing on the head gasket. 

Thanks

hag 

Yes does sound like leaking guides is now the only explanation left. I dont know about using seals though as this would be non standard and of course some lubrication is still necessary so why not go for replacement guides (and valves if required) and also hardened seats at the same time?