The embarrassing Herald restoration thread - now the fiddly bits

[Colin Lindsay]

The 13/60 bonnet will still not fit. This morning's work - in fact the work of the last three days - was to get the bonnet back on, with the new support tube, and gap. Another one-man job with winch and rope but this time it went on easily, no more paint damage (just as well as I've run out of white paint) and it was soon loosely connected up.

Adjustment.... just a nightmare.

This was the best I could manage after three hours:

  

The driver's side I could live with if I can't do any better, but the passenger side will not drop into place. There's just no more movement. If you look at that gap, the wider part to the top and the tight gap to the bottom indicate, to me at least, a required movement forward at the bottom but raising at the front, so that the top goes backwards and downwards as the bottom moves forward. This just will not happen and I cannot gain any further upward movement at the front passenger side.

Interesting, too, when the bonnet is opened: it will not open fully but sits at an angle far short of where the supports would lock.

                                                                               

Tried again... and again... and again... but no avail. The bonnet seems to be hitting against the bulkhead with the rear edges of the wheelarches on the driver's side, so no more rearward movement. Same thing on the passenger side where the outer edge of the wheelarch, that thin strip that runs down to the bottom, is hitting the bulkhead and moving sideways round it thereby twisting the entire bonnet each time it closes.

What I have noticed, and almost accidentally, is that there appears to be damage to the passenger side overrider bracket - compare with the O/S on right below. 

  

The lower part of the overrider bracket is bent inwards, but it has not affected the mounting hole for the bonnet tube - or doesn't appear to have. The adjuster arm just visible in the left-hand photograph is actually hitting the underside of the chassis cross tube hence my lack of available upward movement. 

If you compare that with the same photo of the driver's side (below) although it's at the correct height there's a lot of room still available for movement. 

                                                                                  

This, along with the damage to the original bonnet support tube, unfortunately seems to point to accident damage to the front of the chassis, on the passenger front corner. The reason that the bonnet fitted before was because various 'modifications' had been made to keep the gaps straight, including bending and adaptation of the support tube in that area. Now that I've done things 'by the book' as it were nothing will line up. It does beg the question as to why it wouldn't line up on the old bent tube either when it should have been a match for the other bodges, but that doesn't help.

Overrider brackets I can get - and have used before; but there's going to have to be a lot of careful measuring and checking before I decide if anything else is required. Sadly it means it's not going to be an easy fix, nor a quick one either.

 

[Steve P]

I agree that looks like damage from an impact,and/or dodgy replacement of part of the cross tube.

I had the same thing when i rescued my 13/60 in 2012, difference was i knew it had happened because the owner told me. And the old tube was cut off and a new one came with it. Not just an end piece but the whole tube.

I did spend a long time getting into the right position before welding.

[PeteH]

Don`t know if this is of any assist?.

The dimension from the Bulkhead to the top of the overider bracket (above). is 880mm. Passenger side. And 882mm Driver side.

Pete

 

[Colin Lindsay]

52 minutes ago, PeteH said:

The dimension from the Bulkhead to the top of the overider bracket (above). is 880mm. Passenger side. And 882mm Driver side.

Pete

Thanks Pete; I'll nip out and measure. I spoke to the PO yesterday at a Club run and he was most surprised that the bonnet wouldn't close, we both agreed it was excellent when I got the car.

Early photos such as the ones he took when he bought it back in 2000 point to great gaps back then.

Even the photos taken by the previous owner once removed show great panel gaps too, but he was the man who restored it between 1991 and 1994:

So: what has changed? I know that the man from whom I bought it did nothing to it at all, bar add Vitesse bumpers and drive it, so this means any 'adjustment' was at the restoration stage.

The problem is at the front of the N/S chassis, where the adjusting mechanism seems to be hitting the chassis cross tube before it gets near to the point I'd like it to be at. I've taken a few measurements and both sides appear to be the same, but there's something different that I just cannot see or find - it's just so minimal, yet so crucial, that the bonnet will not raise that half inch I need.

This morning I had one of those 'hang on' moments - wasn't the original adjusting rod modified or damaged in some way, so that I replaced it? Off I went to the spares pile and there's the original:

  

The black painted one is the one that came off. You can see the marks on it from the vice where I tried to straighten it out before binning it in favour of a straight replacement. I assumed it had been bent through poor driving - parking by touch? - rather than deliberate modification. The other bent version in Finnegan's Hammerite pink was also an attempt at a replacement before I decided to err on the side of caution, bought two perfect versions off eBay and used those. This means that the original adjusting rod was bent, and I'm starting to suspect deliberately, in order to clear something at the front of the chassis. I suspect too that if I measure the old, removed bonnet support tube properly I may find a difference, maybe only an inch of difference between the sides, but enough of a difference to prevent the 'unadjusted' replacement tube and arm that I fitted from adjusting to the correct bonnet gaps. 

Tomorrow's job will be working out exactly what I need to undo, and how to go about it. I think the tube end has been replaced or repaired - I've not seen any trace of welds but will inspect closely - and the problem is that whilst the outer ends may be spot on, the area round the overrider bracket may be incorrect - think accident damage, hammered or pulled out to the 'correct' place again, but what distortion has there been to the inboard area as it moved forward? 

It's never easy...

[PeteH]

Tell me about it!!!. I`m still removing and replacing the Cill`s, to attempt to get them to line through and look "right".

Pete

[Josef]

Sounds like a viable lead there though Colin. Fingers crossed this will be ‘it’ as it were. 

[Peter Truman]

Don’t know if it’s an optical illusion but in the bent over rider photo the cross tube centre section between the over riders seems to be locally bent down not straight?

[Colin Lindsay]

18 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

Don’t know if it’s an optical illusion but in the bent over rider photo the cross tube centre section between the over riders seems to be locally bent down not straight?

Nope, perfectly straight!! Had to run out, there now, and check. Going to add a lengthy update below, though...

[Colin Lindsay]

Okay.... 13/60 bonnet. Still the 13/60 bonnet. How many days has that been?

This day so far has been a mixed bag of success, head scratching and experimentation, all of which have worked to some degree but not fully solved the problem. Here's how it goes:

Today's work on the driver's side is almost there... just the slightest backward movement would be great, but the passenger side is still too far out.

 

Giving up on the gaps for now, I decided for a little sidetrack, maybe a bit of positive therapy, to address the problem of the side catches not closing properly. When closed, they sit at a definite angle, as if the catch is out of line. NOT, I hasten to add, the driver's side above, as it was already replaced earlier today when that photo was taken, but the unreplaced passenger side can be seen to be angled forwards at the bottom. The side catches were shimmed quite heavily when I bought the car, both the latch itself and the catch, but still this sideways stance as if being pulled in one direction.

So: I decided to remove, inspect and replace if necessary. I've had a collection of NOS and remanufactured versions on the shelf for a long time, so off comes the tissue paper.

  

Bling! I must admit some of them haven't lasted very well, only 20 or so years in storage.

I then removed the old version, rusted, seized rollers and terrible chrome, and gave it a quick inspection. First thing noticed was the angle of the catch - wayyyy off to one side, so much so that it's worn a groove in the roller and the side of the bracket. The other side is the same.

 

Interesting. Something has not been adjusted properly... but what exactly? I replaced the catch on the driver's side, as in the photo at the top, thinking that would cure the problem and straighten things up again, but no.... almost the same problem. Not the fault of the bonnet catches, then. Pity, I had hoped that was one of the issues of poor bonnet alignment, but no. It's a symptom, not the cause.

So: back to the gaps. Here's three questions.

Why will the bonnet not pull back any further? It's not hitting at the top, nor the doors, nor the front brackets. 

Second question: Why were the bonnet catches being forced sideways?

Third question: Why does the door gap INCREASE when the catches are clamped on?

That last is one I had just noticed, and was worth an exploration. See photos below:

 

Passenger side above unclamped left, clamped right. The gap increases at the rear as the wing pulls in.

  

Driver's side above, unclamped left, clamped right. See how the gap increases? Yet: the bottom of the bonnet wing is level with the sill. No point in shimming it out at the catch, then.

The plot thickened whenever I realised that the bonnet was not closing uniformly. Catch open, lower wing is straight. Catch closed, lower wing bends at an angle, sitting out at the front and going in at the rear. Same thing on both sides, hence as the wing bends, the gap at the front edge of the doors increases. It was only as I tried to put pressure on the front of the wing at the wheelarch, to push it in, that I realised there was no movement except under heavy pressure. A quick check of the bulkhead - and here's where I'm now glad that I never painted it, but left it black...

 

On both sides the lower part of the wheelarch, where it comes down the inside of the wing, is hitting the bulkhead. On the passenger side this is right on the outer corner, so that as the bonnet catch pulls the wing inwards, the wheelarch cannot compress and so the front of the wing stays where it is while the rear distorts round the catch, hence the increased gap at the rear. This has been happening for so long that the bonnet catches have been pulled to one side under pressure and worn the off-centre groove into the catch bracket. The passenger side arch is also scraping the bulkhead close to the engine valence, as shown in the second photo above. This is why there is no rearwards movement on that side - the wheelarch is tight to bulkhead so no give. 

The simplest thing to do is to modify the rear edge of the wheelarch where it hits, to see what movement that allows. I'm going to mask up the bulkhead with masking tape, look for the witness marks, and see what can be adjusted or lightly trimmed. It's much easier to adjust the wheelarch rear edge to suit than start to measure or grind the bulkhead which I know has been patched in the past. It'll be interesting to see if I've hit the nail on the head regarding bonnet movement - what I thought should be forward and upwards at the front, to let the rear drop into place, may just be a case of adjustment at the rear alone, and once the metal has been trimmed slightly, it may all drop into the right profile.

That will be a case of measure twice, a lot of deep breaths, then measure again. what price is a replacement wheelarch these days, anyway?

[Pete Lewis]

cant you just clobber the wheel arch rear edge to reduce its inference ???

Pete

[Jeffds1360]

I've just had a quick peek under my bonnet and I seem to see a full inch clearance from the rear of the arch to the bulkhead 'ledge' ..... ???? As I shut bonnet, about 6" to go before shut.

Mind, it was by torchlight, but no way would it touch.

[Jon J 1250]

Oof, I feel for you here, Looks a proper headache.

Have the front wings been replaced, it's difficult to see how they ever aligned with the profile of the doors, but the old photos showing it fitting well would seem to prove otherwise. Very strange.

I think i've decided to squirt some extra wax in to my 12/50's chassis now, and never take it out in the wet. determined never to have to take it apart and go through this.

[Steve P]

Pattern door skins often have a poor profile at the top front where it meets the bonnet curve.

Steve

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

cant you just clobber the wheel arch rear edge to reduce its inference ???

Pete

Clobber? CLOBBER?? I'm going for some fine tuning, a little bit of delicate bodywork, the work of a master sculptor. With an angle grinder.

[Colin Lindsay]

Well that's been a long day but I think we've got a result. It seems the whole problem has been caused by bending the wheelarches.

I didn't do it, t'weren't me... but the gaps were excellent when I bought it, and after three months with me off it went to the bodyshop to have the front bonnet panel replaced and the wings resprayed. It seems that at some point during this process, when the bonnet was removed, welded and sprayed, the wings have been bent inwards (possibly poor transporting between two carriers?) with the resulting movement transmitted to the wheelarches, which were pushed outwards outwards at the middle seam. Possibly the bonnet was set onto something for the work which pushed the inner arches outwards? Consequently the wheelarches were narrower than they should be - totally unnoticeable - but longer, and this extra length meant that when the bonnet top was close to the bulkhead edge below the screen, the wheelarches were tight to the bulkhead, and so no rearward movement was possible. The bonnet simply would not move back and close the gaps.

When I tried to latch the bonnet catches - which have hardly been used as the car is not on the road - this brought the lower wings inwards, but the wheelarches sticking out too far at the rear hit the bulkhead again, the front of the wing with the wheelarch down the inside couldn't go inwards, and the extra movement pushed out the sides hence the strange fore-and-aft angle of the lower wings. The bonnet on any Herald does flex as it opens and closes, so if there's no room to flex it can't settle into place.

The solution was to close the bonnet, mark where the wings hit the bulkhead, and batter the Holy Bejeezus out of it... sorry; gently alter the profile until it fitted.

Striking the wheelarch in the centre seam area pushed this area in, and therefore the sides out, and when there was just too much excess metal for the hammer, for example where the two halves of the arch are slightly misaligned in the photo, Mister Grinder stepped in and did the honours. After that it was some gentle bending, some slight adjustment, twisting, pushing and shoving (some people would pay good money for that) and here we go:

 

Not 100% but not bad either. I can live with that. The catches still require fettling and the bonnet cones are way off where they should be but once the bonnet settles it's good enough.

A little lick of paint in places, a small tidyup and we're ready for the rest of the front to go back on again. 

I'm off for a celebration drinkie. Have one on me.

[PeteH]

Colin,

l had similar issue when I first remounted the bonnet. My solution was similar, involving panel hammer and dolly on the rear edge of the wheel arches both sides, which allowed the bonnet gaps to close up properly. In my case I assume that some error crept in, due to having made repair to said items involving their removal.?.

anyway👍 that’s the end of it?

Pete

 

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, PeteH said:

anyway👍 that’s the end of it?

Pete

I hope, Pete. I've still to sort out the lower wings at the bonnet catches, where closing the catches makes the wings flex out, and adjust the bonnet cones which seem to be way off the corresponding holes in the bonnet, but otherwise the car is going back on the road and the rest is just fettling.

[Wagger]

Well done Colln. Full marks for 'Percy Veerance' and 'Earnest Endeavour'.

I have used a screw jack, wooden struts and panel beating dollies wedged in strategic places in order to align mine and push the dents out. Still a bit to do.

[Colin Lindsay]

Ok I spoke too soon. We're back to the beginning again. The passenger side has reverted back to the original out at the top / in at the bottom / foul the door as it opens stance.

 

This is most unfair since, as you can see, I got the driver's side almost perfect. I would have been happy with that EXCEPT for the small issue of the large gap caused by the inward movement of the lower wing which I mentioned earlier. See video below:

 

As the bonnet catch goes on, the wing is pulled inwards to the catch, but this means it pivots in the area of the side latch; the edge closest to the door goes in, and the outer edge comes out slightly. I can't work out why. Once again I suspect the wheel arches, but can't identify the exact problem. They're pushing outwards as the bonnet closes.The gap looks almost fine from the side but from the front it looks like one of those vents you get in front of rear brakes, and my Herald is very definitely not a Porsche.

Back to the drawing board... at least I had the celebration drinkie the other night, so can't return it. Very tasty it was, too.

[Josef]

Can you shim the hook on the body so it’s slightly further out? The video there looks rather like the issue I had with my Spitfire‘s OS wing which I solved with some spacers under the catch. Of course the difference in dimensions in the Herald and Spitfire wings may mean this suggestion is completely irrelevant…

[Wagger]

I played with this for ages. Had to angle the fixed part of the catches and align the bonnet stops so they pulled things into place. Also did as Josef suggests with shims.

I have considered fitting stops to space the wings accurately for and aft of the fixed catch.

[PeteH]

Sounds daft, but is the passenger side cone in the right place?.

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

45 minutes ago, PeteH said:

Sounds daft, but is the passenger side cone in the right place?.

Pete

Not daft at all, but very well spotted; no, the cone won't fit into the corresponding bonnet hole, which the PO has ovalled severely to try to make it fit and then used large washers to stop the cone falling through. I'll have to weld a triangular plate over the entire area then redrill where it fits. It's not fitted here at all though, so the bonnet isn't resting on it.

[NonMember]

The wheel arch is fundamentally much stiffer than the rear edge of the wing, so if your catch is pulling the wing inwards it will always pull the rear edge further than the arch. Josef's spacers reduce how much it pulls the wing in, which is fine as long as the resting position lines up with the sill. Wagger's stops idea may be a good option if you can work out the right position so they don't interfere with lifting the bonnet. You probably only need one at the back.

[Colin Lindsay]

I'm debating attaching (gluing?) a small rubber block to the rear edge of the bulkhead side panel, cut to the required depth so that the wing will be held out at the rear to the same profile of the door; it doesn't need to be that big, just functional. I'll need to sort out those ever changing gaps first, though, and work out exactly why the passenger side reverted to the original angle after being almost correctly adjusted.

In the meantime I've gone for the therapeutic option of other, simple jobs. When the PO had the car he obtained an inner door handle from me as his original was broken off at the base; when I bought the car the still unfitted handle came back to me. The replacement was very difficult to fit although we got there in the end.

Earlier in the week I decided to address the ill-fitting passenger side quarterlight - I fitted p-seals to the screen pillars which are perfect on the O/S but not great on the N/S; the quarterlight sits on rather than inside the rubber. I had a bit of a faffle getting the door handle off again, and close examination revealed a difference from the door handle mechanisms that I'm used to.

The 1200 estate has a much simpler mechanism - left photo below - compared to the later car.

  

I've no idea why they were changed, as screenshots from various online sites use the more complicated version for all Herald models: 

                                                                                        

Comparison of the two differing types reveals a much shorter spindle on the 13/60 version; I suspect it may have been trimmed as even the screenshot shows a much longer spindle, but there's no evidence of it. That's the reason I couldn't compress it down far enough to get the pin through, so as I have a number of the simpler types in the spares pile, that's what's going back on.

                                                                                

Problems arose too at the other end of the remote rod at the lock attachment - the 13/60 has been drilled out to take a coach bolt and nyloc nut, where it should have a pin and a circlip. My replacement has the pin but sadly the circlip is long gone. Only one supplier is listing them for sale but for some reason I cannot get hold of them today, nor can I order online. I'll keep trying but in the meantime anyone know the proper name of this part, other than "Triumph door release remote retaining clip 608703"? If I can determine the actual name of the type of clip I can widen the search. It's strange that they're used on many other Triumphs, from TRs to Spitfires, but everyone shows them as NCA. I had to steal that one from the estate so it will requiring replacing...

                                             

Canley Classics also came through for me, as following the sale of the SAH rocker cover I decided a plain alloy version would better suit the 13/60. I ordered at the start of the year and I know there were supply problems, Paddocks also couldn't supply, but just as I was giving up on the idea, one arrived unexpectedly last week from Canleys and looks so much better than the original orange version. I've no idea why Triumph went for their colour scheme but the orange rocker and the silver air filter box are a bit of a mis-match. The air filter box on mine is now gloss black.

 

The second photo shows the difference in cork gaskets that are currently on the market. The rocker cover came without any, so I went to the shelf. You'd think the larger seal would be better but it's actually too big, a bit obtrusive in the engine bay, so I fitted the smaller which is almost invisible but fits all the way round, so I'm not expecting any oil leaks. Not from there, anyway - there are enough from the lower end. I think I should have used sealer on the sump gasket...

Next is refitting the door trim, adding the handles which should be much easier this time, then back to the bonnet once again.