Restoring to Engine-Swapping

[Louis F]

Before offending any purists in this forum, let me introduce myself. My name is Louis, and i have just set myself an account as i have questions, and this community is the best place to look (for answers). My grandfather owns a mk1 1600 Vitesse Saloon. It is in an extremely poor state. It has 90000 miles on the clock, and has been sitting in his garage for roughly 30 years. He is the second owner. I have always been passionate about starting the project, and now, more than ever, am i encouraging him to share the same passion.  Whilst i do not live with him, i regularly visit him to help on the car. At this moment in time however, i just keep in close contact to him through mobile devices. He is a member of the TSSC , and has been for a year or so now. 

As you are probably aware, the 1600 saloon was the most produced Vitesse, and so we (mainly myself) would like to make it unique. (possibly even put a stag 3.0l V8 in it, or possibly a chevy 350 (5.7l) V8 in it!) Both myself and my grandfather are heavily interested in Practical Classics, and have attended several of their shows at the Nec. I prefer American Classics personally, hence the V8 dreams. I would like to own a 1970 dodge charger one day, but the Vitesse is a good start.

So, question time. The main question for now is WHERE TO START, and any precautions we should take. Due to Covid 19, i cannot start the restoration, but will be soon on it ASAP.

I am happy to provide more information if required. 

Feel free to criticize, yes really

Thanks, Louis.

[Pete Lewis]

well the 1600 as it stands is a good free revving balanced and spritley set up, fitting a torquey V8 would mean a complete re design the exiting transmission, diff  drive shafts brakes and 

suspension would need really big and  serious upgrade

too much torque and you need to stiffen the chassis unless you want it to twist

making a classic 'unique' can take a big chunk out of its appeal and value  

Im no purist , i like to stick to the basics as deigned , you do need to have a good read of the implications of such a vast change to being able to actually register tor insure the beast 

have fun but this sounds a trip to disaster 

pete

 

[yorkshire_spam]

If you really want to stick a torquey V8 in then the diff is either doing to crap itself frequently or is going to need replacing. Peter Fern runs a Heraldish with Mazda MX5 engine (non standard) and it has a habit of chewing up the small chassis diffs. I dread to think what a V8 would do to one.

How about keeping it "Vitesse-ish" I've often wondered about sticking a modern BMW straight six in a Vitesse - but you have to be up to some serious wiring etc to get the ECU etc running.

Another interesting option would be a Ford zetec or something like that - lots of power for not a lot of weight and people have done it to Spitfires etc before?

[Colin Lindsay]

28 minutes ago, Louis F said:

Before offending any purists in this forum, let me introduce myself. Feel free to criticize, yes really

Thanks, Louis.

Hello Louis, welcome to the forum!

You're in the right place for good advice, sadly not from myself as I'm keeping my Triumphs standard - easiest, or laziest way, or coping with them!

However: it's your car, so do what you like, and don't feel you have to conform to originality. Have a look at some of the mods in the Restoration thread and you'll see what I mean.

The only advice I feel qualified to give is: don't throw any of the original parts away, someone may want them, or you may, some day, want to return the car to standard. It's amazing how many parts that you think are common suddenly become hard to find when you need them...

Colin

 

 

 

[Nigel Clark]

Welcome Louis!

No problem from me if you want to modify the car but as Pete points out, you will need to spend a lot of money uprating brakes, suspension and transmission to handle the extra power you're considering. And that cost is unlikely to be reflected in the final market value, should you wish to sell the Vitesse later.

Personally, if I wanted to get more out of the Vitesse 6, I would either stick with the original format and tune it slightly, though of course the performance wouldn't be anywhere near a big V8 conversion. Or for a bit more go, consider a Triumph 2.5 litre saloon engine, easily tuned to give a torquey 130 bhp and easy to fit, or a bit more power with TR6 spec and Lucas PI. Brakes would need improving but the parts from a 2 litre Vitesse or GT6 can cope. You would also need  a better gearbox, diff and driveshafts, all available from various Triumphs and therefore relatively simple to fit.

Naturally I'm biased, having put a 2.5 litre engine in my GT6 last year! You may have seen it in Practical Classics.

By all means go for whatever floats your boat, you will be able to ask questions and get friendly advice here.

Nigel

[Bfg]

.

I'd have to agree with Pete's comments regarding practically everything of the Vitesse would need upgrading, including the chassis, to cope with a whole lot more power from the BMW or an American block ..and all the wrenching torque which goes with those cubes.  It would also cost a fortune to do bit by bit ..and then the insurance would be more than someone like myself might afford.  Remember also you'll need to restore any remaining Triumph parts too ..after their long and good service life and then such a long sleep.  So in almost every respect - it would be more practical to start with the chassis and mechanicals from a yank ..and to drop a Vitesse body on top - just for its looks.! 

If that doesn't sound like what you are really looking for,  then perhaps you'd be smarter to team up with your grandfather to get the Vitesse back on the road and in half decent shape ..with a firm deadline to be legally on the road in it - this year ! ..and to enjoy it going to rallies together.   Think of it as a first project, an essential but still fun part of the learning curve, while you keep your eye open for an interesting American car or truck to do next. 

However if you're adamant to V8 power the Vitesse,  'cause you love the sound ..and for the sake of having something really special - then I think you'd do well to look out for a Daimler V8  2-½ ltr motor  ..designed by Edward Turner (who was also famed for his Triumph motorcycle engines).  You'll find its smooth but still sounds great.  Its also a tough motor, and yet I'd guess it to be much the same weight as the 1600 Vitesse six cylinder. So the Triumph's suspension and steering might still work.  However it comes with 140bhp (and is tuneable) and bags of torque for such a lightweight car. That's about twice as powerful as the 1600 engine.

Pete.

[Pete Lewis]

we actually have a local car  a vitesse fitted with a stag engine, and std transmission it was done by the owner but is not given the beans or driven wildly all very gentile 

not seen it for a long time    I have not had to value it ...where would you start!!!       think it was done to see if you can,  rather than was it any good 

no idea what was done with brakes etc.  

Pete

 

 

[johny]

Louis perhaps you should get along to a meet to see a nice Vitesse? They can be set up to go and sound very good as, although not in the same league as a V8, the six is a bit special...

[Gary Flinn]

Welcome to the Forum Louis

You state correctly that the Vitesse 6 Saloon was the most common model (22,818 Made according to my records) but it must surely be the rarest one around these days?

Have you considered a restoration to standard factory specification?

Although the 1600 is the least powerful of the six cylinder engines, it is extremely smooth and willing.

I've seen a couple of Vitesse's with Rover V8 Engine's fitted, but as stated above they need the drive train completely upgrading, together with Chassis and Front Bulkhead modifications depending on the make of V8 fitted.

I would suggest restore as Original, but it's your car.

Good luck with it

Regards

Gary   

[Nigel Clark]

36 minutes ago, johny said:

Louis perhaps you should get along to a meet to see a nice Vitesse? They can be set up to go and sound very good as, although not in the same league as a V8, the six is a bit special...

Good advice, as soon as we're able to start meeting again.

There are quite a few 2.5 litre Vitesses in the club. Before committing to a V8 conversion, I would recommend you find a friendly owner who will give you a ride in one, or better still let you drive.

The straight six is smooth, has a great sound - though certainly not quite the full-fat V8 soundtrack - and the 2.5 litre has a lot of torque.

Nigel

[Louis F]

wow i did not expect such a response. I agree with what you all are saying, and appreciate your opinions. Whilst i do love the V8 sound, i am aware of the complications surrounding such a drastic transformation. I agree with what Johny said, in that we should see a fully restored Vitesse, as my Grandad's self motivation is not the greatest. I will have to do some more research to see what WE actually want from the car. We would have been attending the PC car show in March, but as you are probably aware, it is postponed until August. Hopefully there are some ideas to be found there.

Finally, where should we start on the restoration at this moment in time?

i can attach some photos if necessary.

Thankyou to you all, Louis

[Louis F]

Also, is anybody in this forum aware (or have knowledge of) this V8 Vitesse and it's owner? 

 

[JohnD]

I can say with confidence that the torque of a 2.5L in a Vitesse that will be driven on the road makes for a very smooth ride indeed.    The car is so light compared to the saloon  or even the TR6 that almost no gear changes are necessary!

And a LOT less work than fitting a V8 would be, wth all the transmission mods that would be needed.

Where are you based?    Once this is all over, you'll be welcome to come and see mine, or else we can arrange to meet at some event.

John

[Louis F]

JohnD , good suggestion. I live in the county of staffordshire, near Derby, whilst my Grandad lives to the west of Kidderminster, about an hour from me.

[Waynebaby]

Louis,

If you still want to go down a V8 route then Tim at Willow Triumph (near Darlington in the North East) has quite a bit of experience in fitting Rover V8s to Spitfires and Heralds. I've attached a link to one of his projects.Tim's an approachable bloke and might be able to give you some pointers over the phone.

Wayne

 http://www.willowtriumph.com/page7.htm

[Pete Lewis]

thats the local   stag engine vitesse   its andy bachelor in toddington, beds 

dont think he is a member not on my last list of  local members

Pete

 

[JohnD]

Louis,

Its a day trip from Derby to Lancaster, so you'll be most welcome, or else I'll be going to a race meeting or something in the midland when this is all over.     PM me with your email, and we can stay in touch.

JOhn

[Nick Jones]

Louis,

Just to add a bit more into the mix.......  As a long-time Vitesse owner and something of a serial Triumph modifier myself, I think you need to consider the following points.

Do you want a Vitesse or do you want a hot rod?  For me, the essence of the Vitesse is the straight six engine, loose that and it's a Vitesse no longer.  As others have already pointed out, the six comes in various flavours from about 70 bhp for the 1600 to a torquey 125bhp or so for a standardish 2500.  More is available with tuning.

The Vitesse is already a hotted-up Herald.  As such, the basic designs were based on powers of 60 bhp at best and are stretched even by the standard 1600 and especially 2L engines.  There are no significant reserves of strength for big power and (especially) torque increases in any of the transmission components.  Even the basic structure is not especially robust with the convertibles being especially flexible.  Adding big power increases breaks things - often rather quickly, especially if you actually aim to use the installed power!

If fitting a V8, in order to produce a package that will allow the extra power to be used reliably, you'll need to look at changing gearbox, differential, even the whole rear suspension as well as brake upgrades.  This potentially takes you into territory where you run out the DVLA points needed to keep the cars identity.

Finally,  your personal skills.  From your description, restoration alone could be a significant challenge.  These are simple cars and the main challenge is most likely rust - along with endless seized bolts and goodness knows what else.  All doable though.  Parts availability is pretty good, it's a well trodden path.  You'll get plenty of welding practice!  However, once the serious mods start, so do the unintended consequences (the law of unintended consequences states that for every planned change made at least 3 more will pop up unexpectedly, and their solutions may in turn trigger more...... ) which can soon result things getting out of hand, work and costs escalating and the project stalling.

There are examples around of the Rover 3.5 and LT77 box in Vitesses and Heralds as well as Spitfires and GT6s.  Some are better than others.  Not many are fully sorted cars where the engines potential can be used to the full and long distances be covered reliably.

My own recipe.  Vitesse 2L Mk2  as a starting point. 2L engine with some moderate tuning including EFI/programmable ignition giving around 130 bhp.  5 speed gearbox from a Toyota Supra.  Rotoflex rear suspension with CV jointed driveshafts. Spitfire 3.63 diff.  Vented disc conversion on the front (original calipers, spaced to suit).  Goes well, but still looks, sounds and drives like a Vitesse.

Here it is in good company on the roof of the Fiat building in Turin last year

And here it is singing its tune in the Julian Alps in 2015

cheers

Nick

[Louis F]

update: at the end of the day, i would like to thank everyone for their contribution to this topic. Although i am not 100% decided on this, i think we should just use the stock engine, and whilst being rebuilt, add some performance upgrades. Maybe mess around with the exhaust system to give a more throaty "V8" sound. i am being put off the V8 - swap more, as the work required and the funds required; just use the Vitesse as a learning point, and focus on a different project after.

having said that, it definitely isn't a no to the V8 option. we will see what happens after the pandemic has passed and lockdown is over.

once again thankyou all, i will be using the forum very much from this moment forward.

Louis.

[JohnD]

Nice video, Nick!     And what a road, just right for a bit of va-va-voom!    

John

[Nick Jones]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

Nice video, Nick!     And what a road, just right for a bit of va-va-voom!    

John

North western Slovenia, 10CR 2015.  There are some fantastic roads around there, but it is a fair trek.  That was very early in the morning - place was deserted.  We'd come overnight across Austria from the Czech Republic having started in Aachen the previous morning.  Finished the day in Cortina.  

That road had a near perfect surface having been quite recently surfaced. On the way up to the top of the pass though - different story.  Road built by POWs with many hairpins.  The sections between the hairpins were a bit tired, but the hairpins themselves were mostly cobbled, some with missing cobbles.  After taking the very first one with some attack as we would with a normal surface...... it was abundantly clear that we would have to back off alot for the next ones if we wanted the car to stay to together.  A Vitesse CV really doesn't appreciate the combination of twist and hammer handed out by such road features.....

Nick

Edit:  An even more amazing road travelled a couple of hours before that was the one from Klagenfurt, in Austria down to the Slovenia border.  An epic collection of sweeping curves mixed with tighter bends, zig-zagging up a steep river gorge alternating between tunnels, viaducts and bridges.  No video unfortunately as was just before dawn and still too dark.