Colin Lindsay Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 1200 engine, 1967 version... and I cannot for the life of me get the core plug to fit that covers the end of the camshaft. I have the proper version, going by the serial number etc on the label on the bag but it will not fit. There seem to be two diameters at the back of the block, one large shallow aperture then the tighter one that the cam sits in. The core plug is too loose for one and much too large for the other. I have both early dished and late bucket, in fact two of the latter and they're both the same size, from different suppliers, and neither will fit. Before I do lasting damage to the block... any tips? I've tried freezing the core plug for a couple of hours but despite being very cold it was no better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 It fits into the larger diameter, shallow bit. It should be a tight fit but one type of plug will fit slightly loose until you hammer it, I think. They're the ones you fit flat side out. It's a while since I did one (and that was a Mk1 2L Vitesse engine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 when I did mine albeit a 66 mk2 spitfire with cam bearings I found that it needed a larger diameter plug than the parts book said I think 2 1/4 rather than 2 1/8 inch and was the dished not bucket type, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted June 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, DanMi said: when I did mine albeit a 66 mk2 spitfire with cam bearings I found that it needed a larger diameter plug than the parts book said I think 2 1/4 rather than 2 1/8 inch and was the dished not bucket type, I think you're correct; mine are both 2 inch and are far too loose a fit to even grip the sides - that's why I was thinking: "surely they can't fit into the inner part, as there's no room?". I've actually got three, all supplied by major suppliers, with two supplied as part of complete kits, and all are too small. My early 1200 engine is dished but I think (may be wrong?) that the later engine from 1967 on is bucket - I'm simply saying that, as the core plugs are all dished in the early engine and bucket in the later, so I'm hoping the cam plug follows suit. As you say Rob the lip is very shallow so the sides will need to have a good grip. Now I'll have to find a supplier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 to add a bucket needs a plain and deeper bore than a welch plug which needs a shoulder to abut Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted June 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said: to add a bucket needs a plain and deeper bore than a welch plug which needs a shoulder to abut Pete There is a shoulder ok, so I'm wondering if the original was dished, it's not deep enough for a bucket version - can't remember nor can I find any kind of reference photo - but the dished plug from Rimmers is too small. I have two early 1200 engines, both dished but in a different shape of housing, so this later version may be the same except I can't compare... plus the dished plugs supplied are much too small and all of the suppliers refer to them as '2 inch." Rimmers do show two, one 2" and the other with no size but a different part number.. must go look it up. 44473 is listed by other suppliers as 'Triumph Cam rear core plug' but no size listed, but I've ordered one for £3 and free postage so it's worth a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 Canley says theyre both 2" and I wonder with the dished type that as you tap into place it doesnt flatten out and expand to fill the hole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescrapman Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 I didn't think you ever took that one out. It isn't in the kits I think. it is always a dished one isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 not according to Canley - two types available. Not sure why youd take it out though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted June 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, thescrapman said: I didn't think you ever took that one out. It isn't in the kits I think. it is always a dished one isn't it? Sadly I did when the block was being cleaned up and rebored... I've just nipped out and checked the dished one I have, and of course it's 44473... so I've wasted £3 buying another one. No butter on the toast tomorrow. It's at least 1mm too small; if as Johny says it needs hammered flat it's going to take a lot of battering to get it to expand sufficiently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Colin Lindsay said: It's at least 1mm too small; if as Johny says it needs hammered flat it's going to take a lot of battering to get it to expand sufficiently. Might do though as its convex so if tapped in the middle would expand? Nothing in the manual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted June 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 Nothing in the manuals at all regarding either removal or replacement, but it's supplied in the kits I checked just now and for some reason in a different colour - yet both dished and cup are supplied with the relevant kits and neither the early nor the late engines take the cupped version. I've just been out to check, nowhere else on the engine takes anything close to that size. I've got three bucket and one dished, all too small by at least 1mm or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 my 66 spit engine had bucket plugs for the water jackets but dished for the oil gallery ie cam and the 3 on the distributer side, this isn't noted in the parts book. and as I said the cam one supplied was too small by if i recall 1/8 inch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 Colin have at look at this supplier who also sell on ebay: enginecoreplugs.com They do 2 1/8" dish plugs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 up. This shows a recess for a dished plug for sure, the obvious step is the giveaway. You “just” need to find one the right size! Should be a snug fit before you start flattening it. Any decent old-school engine machine shop should have a drawer full…. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted June 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 4 hours ago, Nick Jones said: This shows a recess for a dished plug for sure, the obvious step is the giveaway. You “just” need to find one the right size! Should be a snug fit before you start flattening it. Any decent old-school engine machine shop should have a drawer full…. Nick Her's a photo from another angle; I'd agree dished as it's not deep enough for bucket but why on earth do they all sell core plugs that are undersized? Is it simply because so few people ever remove this one that the suppliers have all gotten away with it for years? I'll bet that this is the one that's always left over in the kit. I'll start with the In-Laws tomorrow to see if they have anything close in their workshops then I'll go with the supplier Johny recommended - that was one of two sites that came up in my searches and certainly looks good. I can't find one single reference photo of that part of the engine online; in fact if you search Bing for 'Triumph Herald engine block' a large percentage of the photos are of some guy who has fitted an MX5 engine and seems to dominate the search results with photos of the MX5 engine and nowt on the Herald... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 What is the exact size of the outer hole Colin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said: but why on earth do they all sell core plugs that are undersized? Either some clerk, probably long dead, who compiled the parts list made an error, which has never been corrected or it’s correct for some earlier version of the engine (948, something for a Standard Eight?) and some clerk never updated it. Anyway it’s been messing people up for 60 years or so now and no end in sight 🙄 Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted June 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 1 hour ago, johny said: What is the exact size of the outer hole Colin? Can't confirm with any accuracy at present, Johny, as my calipers gave up a while back. I'll borrow a professional set tomorrow morning and measure accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 I suspect that the diameter was changed when the mk2 spit had cam bearings. They perhaps had to increase the diameter at this point but to save cost used the same tool for all engines, but never recorded the chnge. When rebuilding my engine many things did not match the engine number and the car had only done 68000 and everything was standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted June 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 FC60122 was the Spitfire change. Rimmers lists every set of core plugs for each model of Spitfire and the large plug is listed as 148353, 2 inch for all. Canleys are the same, listing 2" bucket type for all. I have three of those! The dished type is 44473, again too small by quite a margin. I've managed a couple of photos, taken with the dished version set in backwards (the only way it will balance!), to show how great a margin there is. The gap is to the outer rim, not the smaller one you can just see which the cam is in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 If the dished plug is 2" diameter it looks like 2.125" will be a perfect fit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMi Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 Why it resubmitted my comment I don't know. There is no mention in the parts book as to the larger diameter plug but it clearly happened. According to the parts book my engine should have had the later 5 bolt bridge piece (it didn't) and should not have had the strainer built into the sump but have a strainer on the oil pump which was not the case. I actually spoke to Canley Classics re the core plugs and they said that they were familiar with a mix of dished and cup on the 6 cyls but not on the 4s. There seems to be a lot of undocumented changes to the late 1147 engines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted June 13, 2021 Report Share Posted June 13, 2021 Dan - Sometimes the buffer holding your text doesn't clear when you actually post the message. Result, sometimes it gets posted twice. It has caught me several times. Click on the three dots on the top right of the posting and click on delete. Which is what I will do sometime tomorrow so this message doesn't clutter the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted June 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2021 14 hours ago, johny said: If the dished plug is 2" diameter it looks like 2.125" will be a perfect fit... Looks like 2 1/8, so yes that'll fit. I've just ordered one online, will know by Wednesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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