Clutch parts for fitting a Triumph Overdrive gearbox onto a 1970 Triumph Herald 1200

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, johny said:

ooops sorry I see now youre trying to fit a 1500 Spitfire single rail box into a 1200 Herald? Id better shut up as of course the friction plate splines are different and the question is will it work with the 1200 pressure plate or will it need the Spitfire one complete with flywheel....

 

Or has the correct bearing carrier and bearing been fitted? The shorter one, if incorrect here, won't reach the clutch at all.

 

[jagnut66]

Well, I've done the above (except the pressure plate of course) and despite reversing my nipple I still can't get enough pressure.

I have better pressure but not enough to activate the clutch fully with the engine running.

I will try the weight holding down the clutch pedal overnight but in the meanwhile I'll purchase that NOS Herald pressure plate. 

It may be simply that my original is knackered or simply no longer up to dealing with an OD unit in the way it dealt with the standard 4 speed one.

1 hour ago, johny said:

the question is will it work with the 1200 pressure plate or will it need the Spitfire one complete with flywheel....

In the above posts I was advised that there is no difference between the Spitfire and Herald pressure plates, or have I misinterpreted that?

Best wishes,

Mike.

[jagnut66]

5 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Or has the correct bearing carrier and bearing been fitted? The shorter one, if incorrect here, won't reach the clutch at all.

I have fitted the one that came with the OD box, which has a longer and thicker push rod attached to it.

I thought that would be correct.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[jagnut66]

23 minutes ago, 68vitesse said:

Always assuming its in the correct box.

A quick google search turned up this eBay link with more information, your decision if it will work with your setup.

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/403443032089

Regards

Paul.

Interesting, my existing one has thicker and fewer 'sections' in the centre, as per a 1200. This then may be an answer, it is also NOS, so unworn by active service in a previous car. 

But will it just bolt on? It looks similar, only one way to find out I suppose......

Best wishes,

Mike.

[DanMi]

15 minutes ago, jagnut66 said:

Interesting, my existing one has thicker and fewer 'sections' in the centre, as per a 1200. This then may be an answer, it is also NOS, so unworn by active service in a previous car. 

But will it just bolt on? It looks similar, only one way to find out I suppose......

Best wishes,

Mike.

The herald and spitfire 1200/1300 diaphragm clutches were identical. There will be differences in the cover but that will be due to manufacturer not the spec ie QH versus Borg and Beck. The only difference that you have is a driven plate with fine splines

[DanMi]

I have never seen a pushrod with the thicker part and the part number was always 109182 so all should be the same (that one looks like a bit has been added but should still work)

[jagnut66]

11 minutes ago, DanMi said:

The herald and spitfire 1200/1300 diaphragm clutches were identical. There will be differences in the cover but that will be due to manufacturer not the spec ie QH versus Borg and Beck. The only difference that you have is a driven plate with fine splines

Thanks, so it doesn't matter which one I fit, it should work with the OD gearbox I have installed.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[jagnut66]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Or has the correct bearing carrier and bearing been fitted? The shorter one, if incorrect here, won't reach the clutch at all.

Thinking about it Colin, the actual bearing carriers themselves appeared to be the same depth, when place side by side for the photo..........

So I may need to find a deeper one then.

I bet this is going to be like looking for a needle in a haystack...........

What model is the deeper one from? Triumph Spitfire 1500? Or something else? Thanks Colin.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[DanMi]

3 minutes ago, jagnut66 said:

Thanks, so it doesn't matter which one I fit, it should work with the OD gearbox I have installed.

Best wishes,

Mike.

The bellhousings are basically the same, just a minor drilling for the selector arm on the 1500 and maybe the centre seal is a rubber seal rather than scroll but nothing that would affect the clutch operation. The actuating mechanism is the same as well, assuming that everything on the OD gearbox was correct. Did you put a new release bearing on as some new ones being supplied are too shallow.

[jagnut66]

2 minutes ago, DanMi said:

Did you put a new release bearing on as some new ones being supplied are too shallow.

Yes, supplied by Rimmers.

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRB207

They quote the same one for the Spitfire. The original I took off was more rounded and not as flat. 

Is there a source for the deeper ones? Otherwise I may well refit the original, it looked like it would clean up.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[DanMi]

3 minutes ago, jagnut66 said:

Yes, supplied by Rimmers.

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRB207

They quote the same one for the Spitfire. The original I took off was more rounded and not as flat. 

Is there a source for the deeper ones? Otherwise I may well refit the original, it looked like it would clean up.

Best wishes,

Mike.

It should be identical to the spitfire but when I bought a new one a few years back although supplied as correct it was not the same it was a good few millimetres shallower and flatter on top, returned as not fit for purpose. If refitting the old one just make sure that the bearings are smooth

[DanMi]

1 hour ago, DanMi said:

It should be identical to the spitfire but when I bought a new one a few years back although supplied as correct it was not the same it was a good few millimetres shallower and flatter on top, returned as not fit for purpose. If refitting the old one just make sure that the bearings are smooth

I have just noted that I mentioned this issue back in September. I believe that the bearing supplied will throw the geometry out and probably not enough people are buying just the release bearing, as must buy a 3 piece kit for them not to have taken note or they don't care.

[jagnut66]

1 hour ago, DanMi said:

as must buy a 3 piece kit for them

And as I've moved away from the standard set up to fit an OD box, therefore a standard kit won't suit my needs and I'm buying items piecemeal, these issues are being highlighted.......

 

 

 

[jagnut66]

3 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

4 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Or has the correct bearing carrier and bearing been fitted? The shorter one, if incorrect here, won't reach the clutch at all.

Thinking about it Colin, the actual bearing carriers themselves appeared to be the same depth, when place side by side for the photo..........

So I may need to find a deeper one then.

I bet this is going to be like looking for a needle in a haystack...........

What model is the deeper one from? Triumph Spitfire 1500? Or something else? Thanks Colin.

Best wishes,

Mike.

Fortunately I decided that one thing I could do was clean up my spares and in doing so realised that my bearing carriers are not the almost flush type shown to the left of Colin's picture but the deeper version to the right, so no need for a hunt.

Phew!

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Colin Lindsay]

That's good, as I was looking for another one and couldn't find it! 

The only other thing I can think of is whether the slave cylinder is correct; you have the diaphragm type fitted to match the clutch, rather than coil, and the curved diaphragm bearing?

[DanMi]

just had a bit of a delve, they are supplying a koyo rtc385L1 from their photo which has a depth of 16.4mm. I have an old stock Borg and Beck which is an SKF 415441 and has a depth of 19.6. Not sure how significant 3.2mm is here, but they are simply supplying something close-ish, not the correct bearing.

[johny]

34 minutes ago, jagnut66 said:

Fortunately I decided that one thing I could do was clean up my spares and in doing so realised that my bearing carriers are not the almost flush type shown to the left of Colin's picture but the deeper version to the right, so no need for a hunt.

Trouble is I think youve probably got the deep carrier and correct slave already installed so thats not the problem...

[jagnut66]

14 minutes ago, johny said:

Trouble is I think youve probably got the deep carrier and correct slave already installed so thats not the problem...

I've bitten the bullet and ordered the NOS pressure plate and a replacement master cylinder, hopefully these will fix it, if not I'll be at a loss....

23 minutes ago, DanMi said:

I have an old stock Borg and Beck which is an SKF 415441 and has a depth of 19.6.

Using the ref. number SKF 415441 I have found this online but only one place, so far, that has some, they're not cheap, which may be why Rimmers no longer stock them.....

https://www.sp-spareparts.com/en/p/415441-tn-skf

Out of interest I've requested a quote for the bearing from this lot:

https://www.123bearing.eu/bearings-415441-TN-SKF

Best wishes,

Mike.

[DanMi]

it would be cheaper to buy a classic clutch kit (canleys £64.31) which had the correct bearing when I bought one years ago, I found that the cover a bit unsmooth in it's action so have NOS now but still using the release bearing. They must be available as they are in the clutch kits just not separately

[DanMi]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353995366864?hash=item526bc4a1d0:g:FeAAAOSwQNZiTaJf  Quick search bring up this at a pretty good price and QH were high quality (though grease may be dry)

 

[NonMember]

6 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

simply no longer up to dealing with an OD unit in the way it dealt with the standard 4 speed one.

There is absolutely no difference in this from the clutch's perspective. It doesn't know anything about the overdrive, and its limitations relate only to the amount of engine torque it can handle.

You keep referring to "an OD unit" - NONE of your problems are to do with having overdrive. What matters is that you are replacing a Herald 3-rail gearbox with a 1500 Spitfire single-rail one, with the fine spline input shaft.

6 hours ago, DanMi said:

The herald and spitfire 1200/1300 diaphragm clutches were identical.

However, neither of them are compatible with a single rail box, and you need a Dolomite 1300 driven plate. I think the cover is still the same, though.

I think the release bearing and carrier should be the same, too, so that shouldn't be your problem.

I assume you've checked the pivot pin?

[jagnut66]

4 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

and the curved diaphragm bearing?

I have GRB 207, supplied by Rimmers. This has a flat face to it, as opposed to the original SKF 415441 which seems hard to find these days.

I do have an original bearing, which has cleaned up well and I may well refit this when I remove the gearbox to replace the pressure (cover) plate.

It sounds smooth when I turn it, so seems okay. The other spare one I have sounds a bit 'graunchy', so is probably only fit for the bin.

2 hours ago, NonMember said:

You keep referring to "an OD unit" - NONE of your problems are to do with having overdrive. What matters is that you are replacing a Herald 3-rail gearbox with a 1500 Spitfire single-rail one, with the fine spline input shaft.

 

2 hours ago, NonMember said:

However, neither of them are compatible with a single rail box, and you need a Dolomite 1300 driven plate.

I stated somewhere near the start of this that I had sourced two NOS driven plates, to match the splines on the gearbox. I never said I had a problem with the driven plate.

I have been referring to the pressure plate (or cover) and by inferring that was not up to the job, I meant that I have come to the conclusion that it may be worn out. As the NOS Herald one I spotted on eBay was only £26 I have bought this, so we shall see. At that price it would be silly not to, as I have no idea how long the old one has been fitted to the car.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[jagnut66]

Just found this, NOS release bearing and bought it:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134184963954

Coded as: CCT70 though, rather than GRB207, which was what was printed on the label of the other NOS Quinton Hazell bearing which was highlighted earlier. GRB207 is the same reference that Rimmer uses for their flat ones. 

When it arrives I will replace my Rimmers flat one.

I also spotted these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193604974284?hash=item2d13c176cc:g:EQ0AAOSwPqlfJBnI

But these are quoted as: Fits Vitesse, GT6, Dolomite Sprint, Dolomite 1850, Triumph 2000, Triumph 2500, TR7

So would they be different to my Herald / Spitfire one? 

Best wishes,

Mike.

[johny]

7 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

I have been referring to the pressure plate (or cover) and by inferring that was not up to the job, I meant that I have come to the conclusion that it may be worn out. As the NOS Herald one I spotted on eBay was only £26 I have bought this, so we shall see. At that price it would be silly not to, as I have no idea how long the old one has been fitted to the car.

Not sure what you mean by 'not up tp the job' as pressure plates are pretty easy to assess visually really. The friction surface should be smooth (if the friction plate has worn too low its rivets can cause damage) and the fingers even and not badly hooked from wear by the release bearing. Theres not much else and if these points are ok it will work ie transmit torque. Its the friction plate and release bearing that are the components that wear but all three items are usually replaced together while youre there as its not expensive...

GRB 209 has a rounded thrust surface so different from your release bearing. 

[Pete Lewis]

and never fit a coil spring cover disc to a diaphragme cover they are thicker linings on a coil /disc  this will give you a light pedal and a low clamp load and slip 

Pete