Clutch parts for fitting a Triumph Overdrive gearbox onto a 1970 Triumph Herald 1200

[NonMember]

2 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

The new mounting plate I bought before I rediscovered the secondhand one supplied with the gearbox, turned out to be the wrong plate, so the secondhand one was tried and is spot on. I should have stuck to what the chap supplied with the gearbox and not wasted my time.

Is your second photo of the second hand one? It looks like a much better design than the currently available ones.

 

2 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

I suspect I've inadvertently ended up with one for the D type O/D box

I thought they were the same but it's a long while since I've had a D-type in any of my cars.

[jagnut66]

5 hours ago, NonMember said:

Is your second photo of the second hand one? It looks like a much better design than the currently available ones.

Yes, good thick metal, with a slight recess for the support to sit in, fitted first time of asking in the right place to fit the support, if I'd had the bolts!.........

The picture below shows the new mounting plate that I bought but which doesn't fit, namely it doesn't slide far enough under the rear end of the gearbox (not narrow enough at one end) to be able to mount the support on it. I could trim it down with my angle grinder but, as the secondhand plate fits, I won't bother.

I also bought a new support, which is exactly the same as the one that came with the box, picture in the above post. Hence why I thought the new plate would fit........

Whilst I am thinking of it, what experiences do people who have fitted a J type into a Herald have with the existing (fibreglass?) tunnel cover?

Does it fit back over ok? I am hoping so, as I want to retain the original look but have popped off the sound deadening in case it's going to snag when I try it.

Many thanks,

Mike.

 

 

[NonMember]

6 minutes ago, jagnut66 said:

The picture below shows the new mounting plate

Ah, of course. D'ohhh! For some reason I thought you were talking about the rubber mount rather than that plate. Yes, that plate will differ from D-type to J-type because the units are slightly different lengths and have different sump shapes.

[jagnut66]

The bolts for the mount to the gearbox arrived from Canley today, very pleased, a little smear of copper grease on each and they both screwed in lovely, with not too much fiddling to line them up. Dropped the jack away from the gearbox and bolted the mount to the crossmember plate, so that's one more off the to do list.🙂

Refilled the gearbox with new oil. Another tick. 🙂

On a roll here, I'll just reconnect the slave and master for the clutch.....

Tried bleeding it through about five or six times, nothing!

Limp as a (suggestions on a postcard to the editor -- could make an amusing article 😉)....

Anyway, upon investigation and having tightened up where I thought there may be leaks, I decided to order new and start from fresh. I already have a new Kunifer pipe, in with a set of replacement brake pipes, so, with a new, internally clean,  master and slave, I'll convert the clutch to Dot 5 Silicon whilst I'm at it.

Hopefully they won't take too long to arrive....

That'll teach me for counting my Chickens.....

Best wishes,

Mike.

 

[johny]

Well you couldnt expect everything to go right! If the clutch pedal is moving the MC piston theres only two reasons why the slave fails to operate:

Fluid is leaking out somewhere (pretty obvious) OR the little seal in the MC that shuts off the feed hole from the reservoir isnt closing properly and fluid returns to the reservoir instead of pushing the slave piston.

I think you have the second and a new unit will cure the problem👍 

[jagnut66]

The Master for the brakes had been replaced before I bought her, so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised that the clutch Master has now given up. It looks like it could well be the original (or just very old). 

Plus I have disturbed it's slumber by removing the pipe / draining it.....😉

Best wishes,

Mike.

[johny]

Yes, bleeding is notorious for finishing off old unloved MCs especially the main seal on brake units where its usual travel in the bore is a few mm and then it gets moved the full distance on bleeding. The bore tends to be ok in the used section but damages the seal when it gets to the unused part☹️

[jagnut66]

Well the replacement clutch master and slave won't be here until sometime next week, so in the meanwhile, after removing and discarding my knackered clutch items (very 'gunked up' inside I found), I got on with some other things that needed doing.

Namely fitting the new speedo cable and angle drive and, finally getting round to fitting an electric upgrade to my windscreen washers.

Don't get me wrong, the vacuum hand pump works and is, in fact, of far superior quality to any I've seem fitted to any of my Morris Minors.

It's just that it's still feeble.......................

I reused the bracket that holds it in place mind you, for the new push button. Saved me having to make new, though I did have to enlarge the hole in it. It fits back in the same place as the old one too, which is another reason for reusing it. Familiarity.

I also replaced the small and 'squashed' plastic reservoir with a larger capacity glass one......

Best wishes,

Mike.

[DanMi]

does that actually go to the washers or to a pipe to the driver and the blue colour just a ruse until filedl with proper JD  :-)

[jagnut66]

11 hours ago, DanMi said:

does that actually go to the washers or to a pipe to the driver and the blue colour just a ruse until filedl with proper JD  🙂

New blue coloured JD fed straight through to the driver.........

tthe ttwaffffic ccoppss wwiiillll nneverrr kknoww...... 'hhiccupp'........😜

[Colin Lindsay]

If you get stopped by the Police... "Have you been drinking, Sir?"

"No, it's the car."

Your defence in court is that you then licked the screen before the roadside test....

[jagnut66]

😄

Funnily enough a very similar set up to mine is offered on eBay (and presumably elsewhere too), see link:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284818789950?hash=item425085d63e:g:1TAAAOSwCvdiYtah&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAABAHUNNVi64MudD6wQa%2FG0QgxHNbkauEEtO0B7nnKzQJ%2BhOii%2BrKvqRkZU%2Bpoqt6QMxuior6Ug%2BPrSutxxmWvenNyeeQLloCCeTV328RZXP5oJ9Ehfot65cGrexIr965%2BryrGeQeLZXST0cOsGV4tsNLlGUOu%2FbGZTnpqGZrV6O9Ijs6LcI2pIv2Tr120JbHlsjXcQY45jQFX6Yqw28Jrw92YlWPXoo7AslXHCAFX0DiSX4oATw8IdrzkKmDgZKLK%2Fs6od%2BQRGReITQSIbfonVOviWcKTn%2Bx4nXtljFjXEo%2Fl0h6Kvixq%2BwZWKmza1SITVKP03Yeh8SesVouV2NVBLlSQ%3D|tkp%3ABFBMwoyowsFg

They even use the same electric pump that I have (though bought individually by me):

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283892034393

I have simply made my own bracket for the bottle and fixed the pump to the bulkhead in the area of the original washer bottle.

And in my case the bottle was free.......

After I'd consumed it's contents.......🙂

To be fair though, if you want the professional look you'd need to buy the one on eBay.

Best wishes,

Mike.

 

[jagnut66]

Hello again and back onto topic, I can't get any pedal pressure to activate the clutch. I have fitted new master and slave cylinders and a new pipe linking them. But I get nothing except an very flaccid clutch pedal, no matter how much I bleed it through.

Could I have a duff master cylinder?

I have a different (from standard) brake master cylinder fitted (came with the car -- pictured below -- any suggestions as to what it might be from?) with a bigger plastic reservoir, I am tempted to fit a similar one to the clutch, as the reservoir does seem a bit small, though I suppose adequate for the Herald clutch but I now have the J type OD box fitted.......

Do I need a more powerful master and slave cylinders with this set up? If so, which ones?

In the meantime I have come across the below suggestion by 'Rogcastle' (Roger) on the TR forum when I looked up Triumph clutch problems on the net:

Quote

A good trick is to use a piece of wood to hold the clutch pedal down to the floor overnight. For some reason this gets rid any air in the system.

So I shall give this a go overnight............

Thanks and best wishes,

Mike.

[Peter Truman]

My daughters first Sprint after changing the clutch slave similarly I couldn't get it to pressurize, an old hand told me to stop the slave piston from moving by tying it up with baling wire, the clutch hydraulics bled easy within a few strokes.

I reckon I'd used a litre of brake fluid proir to this fix?

[johny]

I take it your sure the clutch operating arm isnt moving? If so then it is possible you have a duff master cylinder and, when the pedal is pressed, the fluid is returning to the reservoir instead of going out to the slave. You might be able to check this by marking the level of fluid in the reservoir and then seeing if it increases when an assistant operates the pedal....

[Pete Lewis]

you might try  remove the slave from its clamp   tip  up and press the slave piston fully back into the bore to reduce the air volume 

and always the bleed nipple above the feed union  bleed it fully compressed and then refit  pump pedal to extend the slave back to its pushrod  and dont forget to re clamp it 

Pete

[jagnut66]

19 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

and always the bleed nipple above the feed union

When setting the new slave up I put the nipple in the lower hole, as it seemed to make more sense. Does it make any difference then?

I did swap them round briefly, on one run of attempting to bleed the clutch through but it made no difference to the (lack of) pedal pressure, so I reverted to having the bleed nipple in the lower hole again.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Badwolf]

I would always put the bleed nipple at the highest point as any air would rise to that point and then be forced out during the bleed process. I would have thought that the arrangement in your photo would trap any air at the high point.

[johny]

Er yes think theres a very good chance theres a pocket of air behind the slave piston that you cant push out through the bottom bleed nipple and also it wont come back out into the inlet pipe to float up to the MC. Pushing the piston back in will shift some of it but turning the slave up the other way should guarantee that it all gets bled out.... 

[jagnut66]

40 minutes ago, Badwolf said:

I would always put the bleed nipple at the highest point as any air would rise to that point and then be forced out during the bleed process. I would have thought that the arrangement in your photo would trap any air at the high point.

 

28 minutes ago, johny said:

Er yes think theres a very good chance theres a pocket of air behind the slave piston that you cant push out through the bottom bleed nipple and also it wont come back out into the inlet pipe to float up to the MC. Pushing the piston back in will shift some of it but turning the slave up the other way should guarantee that it all gets bled out.... 

Thanks, time to reverse it then. Then I'll bleed trough again and see where I'm at.

Another possibility (as well as air trapped by reversed nipples) is the pressure plate. At present I have the original Herald one fitted, which worked okay with the four speed box but is it man enough for the OD unit I wonder?

Best wishes,

Mike.

[johny]

The clutch is exactly the same with or without OD and shouldnt give you any problems once working correctly👍

[jagnut66]

6 minutes ago, johny said:

The clutch is exactly the same with or without OD and shouldnt give you any problems once working correctly👍

Fair enough, in the meanwhile I spotted this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275373561843?hash=item401d8b17f3:g:NvgAAOSwdU5iRbei

Is it the correct pressure plate for me? The advertiser has added question marks, as he's not sure, which is why I ask. 

It looks like NOS and I already have two NOS driven plates (one of which is fitted) to suit the OD boxes splines, so for that price a spare pressure plate would be a good idea.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[johny]

ooops sorry I see now youre trying to fit a 1500 Spitfire single rail box into a 1200 Herald? Id better shut up as of course the friction plate splines are different and the question is will it work with the 1200 pressure plate or will it need the Spitfire one complete with flywheel....

 

[johny]

It certainly does look like the one for a 1200 Herald but Id get your existing one working first....

[68vitesse]

Always assuming its in the correct box.

A quick google search turned up this eBay link with more information, your decision if it will work with your setup.

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/403443032089

Regards

Paul.