Clutch parts for fitting a Triumph Overdrive gearbox onto a 1970 Triumph Herald 1200

[PeteH]

If I get a bit of time over the weekend, I might pull the engine out of it`s hidey hole and see if I can discern any significant movement. If I recall, the Flywheel/clutch assemby are still attached, so any movement should be obvious?. I do have a DTI and magnetic base, so maybe I can assess the actual movement if only a few thou even ?.

Pete

[DanMi]

If it is out of the car it is very easy to assess, official figures are 4-8 thou but a serviceable but older engine will be more, but then if it is out of the car during a rebuild I would probably replace mains big ends and thrust washers and seals anyway as the hardest part is done (getting the engine out)

[johny]

Yes but if you start with it on its forward limit and then try to move it forward youre going to think theres minimal play!

[PeteH]

My understanding, being that the Engine was running satisfactory before removal. The car itself had quite major issues with the chassis/body. But a substantial catalogue of service records, and an "unleaded" head conversion when some other work was done too. There is only a question mark over one cylinder which is showing a marginally lower compression pressure than the other 3. The "plan" is to remove the sump for a clean and check though, as well as the head to see if the apparent issue is valves or rings. At this time, all I am doing really to to satisfy my curiosity viz the potential for "failed" thrust bearings. I am a big believer in "if it aint broke don`t fix it". Especially with the current state of "iffy" parts from some sources, even those who`s reputation in the past have been good.

Pete

[jagnut66]

Well, I'm back on this again.

The clutch gradually got worse until I couldn't engage gears at all.

So it's back in my garage, in the air once more.

On the plus side the Dave Mac sliding propshaft is now fitted and it's a definite improvement. Also I have had the gearbox off (again) and fitted a new (new) release bearing, there is now no noise when depressing the clutch. 

However, I had no joy, even with a friend (old school trained mechanic) helping, getting it to engage gears with the engine running. He thought the pedal pressure (always good having a second opinion) was good enough but no joy. 

So I refitted that extension piece to the clutch arm. Plenty of pedal pressure now and I could now engage gears. But only with a bit of a crunch.

I am starting to wonder if it might be my old gearbox, everything wears out after all.......

However, the only way to prove that one way or the other, is to source a known (definitely, beyond any doubt) good one. Though it doesn't hurt to have a spare. 

Does anyone have such a box that they are willing to part with?

Thanks and best wishes,

Mike.

[Colin Lindsay]

If you can engage gears after messing with the clutch mechanism, it's not the gearbox. Which release bearing carrier are you using?

[jagnut66]

On 16/08/2022 at 18:30, DanMi said:

One thing that I would check just in case is your crankshaft end float as problems here can feel like a clutch issue. Try to move the front engine pulley back and forward, there should be 4 to 8 thousands of an inch but in a worst case where the thrust washers have fallen out it can move 4mm or more which stops the clutch working properly

This has been at the back of my mind since you first mentioned it. I have now tried this, firstly on my spare 1300 engine, which does have some movement, enough to make it 'knock' when you pull the pully and push it back again. It doesn't seem that excessive but may be on the limit, is the threshold the same for a 1300?

Trying it on the 1300 unit first, because it is out and therefore access is easy, gave me a feel for what you were talking about. With the 1200 unit still being in the car I put a board down and went underneath the car, so I could get a good grip on the pully. I found no apparent movement at all, after several attempts to find some.

Hopefully this is a good sign....................

Best wishes,

Mike.

[jagnut66]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Which release bearing carrier are you using?

I believe it's the same one as was in there originally. Though with that extension piece removed both of them appear to be of the same type.

With no apparent play on the engine pully, I'm at a loss as to what to try next. 

I would say I wish I'd never pulled it all apart in the first place but it was beginning to graunch a bit, which was probably down to that worn cover, so I'd probably have had to take it apart sooner rather than later anyway.

Feeling a might frustrated with it at present I have to say. 

Best wishes,

Mike.

[johny]

I think perhaps you need to go back to basics and discount things rather than keep changing components.

What about unbolting the slave cylinder and seeing how its piston moves with pedal operation? You might also be able to clamp it to prove the pedal goes solid when the piston cant move.

At the same time measure how far the clutch operating rod protrudes from the bell housing when the release bearing is manually pushed fully up against the diaphragm and compare this with the slave piston when in its rest position.

At least this way you can conclusively determine if theres any problem with the hydraulic side of the system.... 

[Pete Lewis]

if you can engage gears engine   Off  but not when idling its definitely Clutch not gearbox 

something odd in the fact someone had extended the pushrod  , which really only moves the slave piston   within the slave bore  has no other effect 

have you removed the slave , pushed the piston fully into the bore and then blead with nipple highest   this reduces air capacity 

will need a good few pumps to return fully when refitted 

17 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

Plenty of pedal pressure now

you say this so it obviously increased  ???   its all in the slave and hopefull the bleed nipple is above the feed pipe ??? 

Pete

[foshi]

had the same on mine ground a bit of the slave pushed it forward clamped up has worked fine since , no idea why   it was a after market  part slave cylinder . could have been that ?

[Pete Lewis]

changing the pushrod length only changes where the piston sits in its cylider unless it overstrokes and bottoms out on the end circlip which would give you 

a solid pedal stroke 

theres loads of spare space/travel within the design, it there to cope with disc wear .

 to get a proper stroke its important the pedal  does fully return and there is a smigde of free play in the pedal push rod ..foot off

a siezed pedal spindle will give lots of operation snags 

Pete

 

[jagnut66]

mmmmm....

You might be right, I'll go back to the start and revisit the first thing I did, which was to change the clutch cover and driven plate. Then work forward from there if I don't find anything.

I hope I do, as this doesn't make any sense to me. I've changed the clutch loads of times on my Minors without all this grief. The only difference being that Minors have a mechanical clutch linkage rather than a hydraulic one.

Maybe there's a 'schoolboy' error in there which, having got so involved with this, I'm not seeing.....

'Woods for the trees'...........

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Pete Lewis]

i would at first do the slave removal and tip it down and bleed it hanging with the piston pushed fully inwards to reduce volume 

refit and see if that works before you pull everything apart 

Pete

 

[johny]

As I say if you can block the piston by bolting something across the slave's mounting bracket to restrict its movement and the pedal is then solid you know 100% nothing is wrong with the hydraulic side....

[jagnut66]

On 21/11/2022 at 13:53, Pete Lewis said:

its all in the slave and hopefull the bleed nipple is above the feed pipe ???

 

22 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

i would at first do the slave removal and tip it down and bleed it hanging with the piston pushed fully inwards to reduce volume 

refit and see if that works before you pull everything apart 

In answer to the first part, yes, the nipple is above the feed pipe.

Just to clarify, I take it you mean that I should unbolt it from the bell housing, separate it from the pushrod for the release bearing and then clamp it with something, so that it's pushed fully home, in much the same way that you would wind a brake calliper home when installing new pads. Then bleed it through again.

On 21/11/2022 at 16:58, foshi said:

had the same on mine ground a bit of the slave pushed it forward clamped up has worked fine since , no idea why   it was a after market  part slave cylinder . could have been that ?

I'm assuming you mean you ground a bit off the face of the mounting boss, which bolts to the gearbox bell housing?

Best wishes,

Mike.

 

[foshi]

no of the slave cylinder so could move it forward more. not saying it is the correct thing to do but sorted  mine out , before would  grate trying to engage gear the pedal now seems firmer. was a new slave and master cylinder well blead, worth a go  

[Pete Lewis]

moving the slave just needs extending the flat that clears the clamp bolt but if the piston is travelling fully and not bottoming out at the end of its stroke 

you just change the position of the piston in its casing   really quite a fruitless move if it changes there is something wrong with the pushrod and its carrier 

the piston moves 3/4"  to operate  the clutch  the cylinder has 2" of travel

you dont nedd to clamp the piston when bleeding  just get the guy with the nipple spanner to poke something up the slave to push the sprung piston in as far as it will go

takes less than a minute , no filling fettling or clamping 

Pete

 

[foshi]

 correct pete will find the problem on mine when i swop the gearbox works for now though

[jagnut66]

On 23/11/2022 at 18:19, Pete Lewis said:

you dont nedd to clamp the piston when bleeding  just get the guy with the nipple spanner to poke something up the slave to push the sprung piston in as far as it will go

The 'guy with the nipple spanner' is me, as I can't keep asking others to pop round, so I'm mostly on my own. 

Which is why I, after reading your post, I came up with the idea to make the little tool pictured below. I utilised the extension piece in conjunction with a home made plate, which bolts onto the slave cylinder and depresses the piston. I then bled the clutch through again. Resulting in a very firm clutch pedal, far better than I've achieved before, even with help. I shall be hanging onto this little home made tool.

However, although I can now engage gears, there is still a crunch when engaging first and then slight resistance with the rest afterwards.

Despite this making the car usable (sort of), it is not really satisfactory. 

So time to take it back apart and re-examine what I've done. I'll also revisit the possibility of it being an end float / thrust washers issue. 

I'm hoping I find something........

Best wishes,

Mike. 

[Pete Lewis]

any serious end float is easy to see but needs another pair of eyes    like watch the front crank pulley and get the clutch pressd   does it move forwards  ??

of single handed just pry the crank pulley with a bit of timber or  a pry bar  any float does move very easily and easy to spot any shift

its unlikely this is your problem.

 

pleased the idea to compress the slave devised your tooling and it did help 

new clutch plates can have a degree of fuzz which needs bedding off to get ride of drag on initial fitting ( depends alot on whos clutch) 

might be worth giving it some  hard work to bed the friction material , give it some slip under power   

bit of smell is ok  any   smoke is bit too far 

if a cover has been dropped it can upset the assembly , look for any bent  torque straps etc. 

and discs can be distorted if the gearbox has been hanging unsupported before the cluch  Hsg is bolted up 

Pete

 

 

[Josef]

On 09/07/2022 at 22:31, jagnut66 said:

Yes, good thick metal, with a slight recess for the support to sit in, fitted first time of asking in the right place to fit the support, if I'd had the bolts!.........

The picture below shows the new mounting plate that I bought but which doesn't fit, namely it doesn't slide far enough under the rear end of the gearbox (not narrow enough at one end) to be able to mount the support on it. I could trim it down with my angle grinder but, as the secondhand plate fits, I won't bother.

I also bought a new support, which is exactly the same as the one that came with the box, picture in the above post. Hence why I thought the new plate would fit........

Whilst I am thinking of it, what experiences do people who have fitted a J type into a Herald have with the existing (fibreglass?) tunnel cover?

Does it fit back over ok? I am hoping so, as I want to retain the original look but have popped off the sound deadening in case it's going to snag when I try it.

Many thanks,

Mike.

 

 

Do you still have this plate, and do you want rid of it!? I was planning on making my own, but in searching to confirm a different one was needed for an O/D box in the Herald I found this post and thought I’d ask.

[jagnut66]

On 14/06/2023 at 23:04, Josef said:

Do you still have this plate, and do you want rid of it!? I was planning on making my own, but in searching to confirm a different one was needed for an O/D box in the Herald I found this post and thought I’d ask.

Hi, 

Yes I do.

Please note though that this mounting plate is for the Triumph 'D' type overdrive gearbox (not the 'J' type).

James Paddock are selling them for £14.50 plus £2.90 VAT and another £5 postage on top of that (part no. 148897).

You can have this for £14.50 and I'll throw in the postage with that (No VAT! 😉)

Best wishes,

Mike.

As a postscript to the above, Josef now has the D type overdrive gearbox mounting plate, so I no longer have one in my spares stash should anyone be looking for one. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by jagnut66
additional text added

[jagnut66]

Hi, 

Been a while but I have been busy on other things (house decorating etc.), anyway, I felt I was going round in circles and getting nowhere fast, so also took a break from it for that reason.

To recap on where I'm at:

The thrust washers have been replaced on the 1200 engine. Well one is new and the other is the best of the old ones, otherwise it was too tight. The engine has been running and seems happy (touching lots of wood! 😉).

I have replaced both the master and slave. I had a friend round to help me bleed it through, the result of which was good pedal pressure.

I also picked up on an article on another Triumph site, which seemed to recommend what another has done above, in that they moved the slave cylinder forward and it cured their problem. Despite my statement above, I still couldn't engage gears and my friend (who is a trained mechanic) checked over what I had done and confirmed it was all correctly installed, so no fault there. 

So I used my angle grinder to create a second slot for the pinch bolt and moved the slave forward in its housing.

The result was excellent pedal feel, at least as good as I've had on my Minors, I felt I might finally have a working clutch......

Did it work, did it hell!

It isn't the distance the bearing / carrier has to travel to reach the cover's splines, that's fine. However, it's like no matter how firm the pedal is, it just won't push into them and engage the clutch. 

I feel like I've just completed another circuit of that circle......

So have two questions....... before I push it into a field.......

I know others on here have successfully done this, so what clutch components did you use? Namely was it a standard Herald 1200 clutch cover with a 1300 driven plate? Standard 1200 / 13/60 release bearing? 

Secondly does anyone know of a good, reputable, Triumph mechanic in or near the Nottingham area?

I think I've run out of ideas (as well as patience).

Best wishes,

Mike. 

 

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

it seems you need to fully bleed the slave .

firstly the bleed nipple must be on the top of the feed pipe

to expell all the air trapped  you need to remove the slave and push the piston in as far as it will go 

rebleed , then a few pedal strokes to reposition the piston once the slave is refitted

have a bleed tube held up high above the slaves height to ensure bubbles go upwards.

moving the cylinder fixed point is never going to work as the piston can sit anywhere in the cyllinder 

so it compensates for disc wear .moving the cyl does not reposition the piston 

pete