Spitfire 1500 - Re-Living My Youth (RLMY)

[Pettifordo]

At the age of 21 my parents purchased me a 1971 Spitfire Mk4. It had been “done up” by a friend and I had helped him tow it back to his garage. It had been standing for a few years so when I took ownership most of the mechanical bits needed work over the next 2-3 years. I kept it for 10 years but then parted with it when my first daughter arrived……

Wind forward 21 years and I found a stalled restoration on Auto Trader which I picked up last Saturday. I now have a massive jigsaw to complete with many missing pieces and pieces that need fixing !!!

If I think about everything that needs doing I panic, but when I think about it one job at a time it doesn’t seem too difficult.

I’ve never welded before and I had thought I would get that work “done” until I got a quote - now I’m going to have a go and @Matthew replied to my thread on the topic and suggested I start a thread here. 

I’m sure I will have many questions and problems - I will give updates as I go.

I hope to meet some of you in person at the Club Event on Sunday 👍

 

 

 

[Pettifordo]

8 hours ago, Mathew said:

I have bought plenty like that. Not as bad as some. At least its taken apart for you! I would recommend repairing the body with it bolted to the chassis, then separating to restore and paint the chassis. 

It’s already off the chassis - would you recommend putting it back on before I repair ?

I need floors, patching to rear wheel arch and an end panel for the front sill (having had the sills, rear wings, rear balance having been done in the past and they seem solid) - I’ve bought some door gap tools to keep the shape.

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Pettifordo said:

It’s already off the chassis - would you recommend putting it back on before I repair ?

YES! Definitely, absolutely, unquestionably! Don't even think about doing anything to the sills or floors unless the body is bolted firmly to a suitable jig - such as the chassis - and the door gaps held rigid.

[chrishawley]

Daunting at the outset - but one step at a time.

I concur with above - not least that it may be unavoidable to have body on/off the chassis two or three times depending on how the job unfolds. Even on the chassis the Spitfire body is somewhat flexible.

There is another reason to put the tub back on the chassis before doing anything else: Namely to prove that everything can and will fit. For myself I'd want to prove that doors, bonnet, front valances and bumpers can all be brought into tidy alignment. A couple of examples from my own experience are:

* Failing to notice just how bad the door fit was until too late in the project (due POs sill repairs being untrue) - remedial work was more problematic than if I'd addressed it earlier in the project.

• Missing the fact the the bonnet hinge pivot boxes were slightly out of alignment due combination of previous accident damage and later imprecise repair. Consequently neither bumper nor over-riders would fit right. More remedial work!

'Proving' the basic structure early on is time well spent.

P.S. How about a few more photos?

 

[Pettifordo]

2 hours ago, chrishawley said:

P.S. How about a few more photos?

Once I do some work you can get more photos 👍

[Pettifordo]

3 welds into the body work and they are getting better, I now have most of parts in logical boxes and I think I have purchased all the tools that I need. I have a car rotisserie on the way to make the welding on the bottom easier (I hope).

[Josef]

47 minutes ago, Pettifordo said:

3 welds into the body work and they are getting better, I now have most of parts in logical boxes and I think I have purchased all the tools that I need. I have a car rotisserie on the way to make the welding on the bottom easier (I hope).

I can attest to welding underneath a Spitfire not being much fun so yeah I'm sure a rotisserie will help. Looking like a good start there!

[Pettifordo]

Hole in the rear wheel arch patched, more challenging to fabricate the patch and the metal I was welding to was super thin and I blew through a few times 😫😫

Still needs final patching of holes and finishing but it is solid.

On the other side I was thinking of spot welding a patch behind the hole and then butt welding a patch on the front so that I have more to weld to ? Is that a good idea or do I just need to dial the welder right down ?

[Colin Lindsay]

26 minutes ago, Pettifordo said:

On the other side I was thinking of spot welding a patch behind the hole and then butt welding a patch on the front so that I have more to weld to ? Is that a good idea or do I just need to dial the welder right down ?

I know very little about welding but I reckon that area, being so close to a seat belt mounting point, will need to be well repaired for the MOT inspector. As a novice I'll be interested in what the experts here recommend.

[RogerH]

The seam (butt) weld is a good way to go.  I think I would have made the cut-out as a circle.

If the corners are not welded properly they may start cracking.

 

Roger

[Colin Lindsay]

On 21/12/2021 at 20:43, Pettifordo said:

 

The yokels been shooting at you again???

[Pettifordo]

I think so !

[Bfg]

On 28/12/2021 at 12:50, Pettifordo said:

Hole in the rear wheel arch patched, more challenging to fabricate the patch and the metal I was welding to was super thin and I blew through a few times 😫😫

Still needs final patching of holes and finishing but it is solid.

On the other side I was thinking of spot welding a patch behind the hole and then butt welding a patch on the front so that I have more to weld to ? Is that a good idea or do I just need to dial the welder right down ?

I feel you've made this very much more difficult by trying to make the repair piece sit flush with the surface. That's great for those attempting totally hidden repairs ..required for a concourse finish, but for someone without experienced panel beating and the welding skills - that'll multiply the restoration by ten times (each in time, frustration, and cost).  It is of course a personal decision as to the standards you aim for. 

For myself, I'm aiming to have a really good / solid driver's car ..to enjoy using as a daily and to holiday tour in ..but which is also very tidy.  I don't have an interest in concourse, as I feel my life is too short for all it involves.  And if I was, then I'd have started off with a better car.!   Conversely, my decision allows the liberty of changing things from original, including of course the finished colour and its trim.  My aim is to keep the character and good looks of the 1960's car, but it'll have to be adapted to better take my physical stature, and then to also accommodate some conveniences of everyday driving.  Imo., several of those conveniences effect driving safety.   

Therefore, for this particularly repair where a panel is locally loaded (..in this case from the seat belt) - I would have cut out the rust and then cut a repair patch 1/2" larger all the way around.  And yes, as advised by RogerH round corners avoid concentrated stress points and so are stronger.  I would have shaped (panel-beat its compound shape) that oversize patch to fit flush to the underside of the arch ..where it sitting 1/16" proud would hardly be seen under rust-preventative treatment.  And I would have spot-tack welded its outside edge of the patch ..pressed tight to the arch.  I would then have worked from the inside boot space to again.. spot tack weld the edge of the hole you cut through the arch to the patch. 

Please have a look at Josef's work on his Herald to see what i mean by tacking < here >  or my own < here >.  Josef is much better work than my own but I'm certain mine was quicker to do, and because of the overlap also stronger.  Note how a few spots are used, to secure the piece firmly in place, and then further spots are added inbetween those.  This way, each piece of metal is less likely to distort with the heat.  If required, any miss placed splatter or ugly spots of weld can be ground level before others are added.       

Your flush fitting panel means that you're welding a gap all the way around, and that is particularly difficult where the metals are inevitably of different carbon composition * and possibly also a slightly different thickness ..and where access is awkward.  ie., a right-handed person working from behind to reach inside the RHS of the boot.  You've done very well, but if you add a doubling plate on the reverse side, for strength, then your efforts to achieve a flush panel are wasted.     * if you have a scrap panels or pieces from the same model of car, then that is often the best source of matching steel. It used to be common practice for car repairers to reclaim roof panels or boot lids from cars in a scrapyard.

"Dial the welder down".  I'd suggest your temperature setting is good, but you might want to dial the wire-feed speed down just a tad, and to hold your gun at a 45 - 60 degree angle.  It's probably bad advice to give, but I do a lot of spot welding without a mask. I position the gun, perhaps holding it with two hands or sometimes resting it against a piece of scrap wood (..like a sign-writer would do) and then close my eyes as I fire the trigger.  I then listen to what's happening. Each burst of weld is very short to avoid burning through. Only when there are enough tacks to hold the patch tight to the surface do I don my mask and weld inbetween those.  In non structural applications, the infilling between spots is not necessary. A good tack every 3/4" on each edge of an overlapped plate is more than enough. 

I do hope these comments are taken in the spirit of my trying to share helpful advice ..rather than damning criticism.

Best regards, Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Bfg said:

I do hope these comments are taken in the spirit of my trying to share helpful advice ..rather than damning criticism.

Best regards, Pete

That's the way I'd take them, as a novice welder intending to start once my mate finds me the MIG welder he's been talking about for months now... but this is the equivalent of measure twice, cut once - read all about it, learn the pitfalls, then go do...

[alan.gilbert_6384]

1 hour ago, Bfg said:

I feel you've made this very much more difficult by trying to make the repair piece sit flush with the surface. That's great for those attempting totally hidden repairs ..required for a concourse finish, but for someone without experienced panel beating and the welding skills - that'll multiply the restoration by ten times (each in time, frustration, and cost).  It is of course a personal decision as to the standards you aim for. 

For myself, I'm aiming to have a really good / solid driver's car ..to enjoy using as a daily and to holiday tour in ..but which is also very tidy.  I don't have an interest in concourse, as I feel my life is too short for all it involves.  And if I was, then I'd have started off with a better car.!   Conversely, my decision allows the liberty of changing things from original, including of course the finished colour and its trim.  My aim is to keep the character and good looks of the 1960's car, but it'll have to be adapted to better take my physical stature, and then to also accommodate some conveniences of everyday driving.  Imo., several of those conveniences effect driving safety.   

Therefore, for this particularly repair where a panel is locally loaded (..in this case from the seat belt) - I would have cut out the rust and then cut a repair patch 1/2" larger all the way around.  And yes, as advised by RogerH round corners avoid concentrated stress points and so are stronger.  I would have shaped (panel-beat its compound shape) that oversize patch to fit flush to the underside of the arch ..where it sitting 1/16" proud would hardly be seen under rust-preventative treatment.  And I would have spot-tack welded its outside edge of the patch ..pressed tight to the arch.  I would then have worked from the inside boot space to again.. spot tack weld the edge of the hole you cut through the arch to the patch. 

Please have a look at Josef's work on his Herald to see what i mean by tacking < here >  or my own < here >.  Josef is much better work than my own but I'm certain mine was quicker to do, and because of the overlap also stronger.  Note how a few spots are used, to secure the piece firmly in place, and then further spots are added inbetween those.  This way, each piece of metal is less likely to distort with the heat.  If required, any miss placed splatter or ugly spots of weld can be ground level before others are added.       

Your flush fitting panel means that you're welding a gap all the way around, and that is particularly difficult where the metals are inevitably of different carbon composition * and possibly also a slightly different thickness ..and where access is awkward.  ie., a right-handed person working from behind to reach inside the RHS of the boot.  You've done very well, but if you add a doubling plate on the reverse side, for strength, then your efforts to achieve a flush panel are wasted.     * if you have a scrap panels or pieces from the same model of car, then that is often the best source of matching steel. It used to be common practice for car repairers to reclaim roof panels or boot lids from cars in a scrapyard.

"Dial the welder down".  I'd suggest your temperature setting is good, but you might want to dial the wire-feed speed down just a tad, and to hold your gun at a 45 - 60 degree angle.  It's probably bad advice to give, but I do a lot of spot welding without a mask. I position the gun, perhaps holding it with two hands or sometimes resting it against a piece of scrap wood (..like a sign-writer would do) and then close my eyes as I fire the trigger.  I then listen to what's happening. Each burst of weld is very short to avoid burning through. Only when there are enough tacks to hold the patch tight to the surface do I don my mask and weld inbetween those.  In non structural applications, the infilling between spots is not necessary. A good tack every 3/4" on each edge of an overlapped plate is more than enough. 

I do hope these comments are taken in the spirit of my trying to share helpful advice ..rather than damning criticism.

Best regards, Pete

 

 

Hi Pete, sorry I have to disagree with two important points ( I used to be a coded welder back in the day).  Number one, eye lids will absolutely not prevent ark eye or retina burn by the weld radiation 

Welding arcs give off radiation over a broad range of wavelengths - from 200 nm (nanometres) to 1,400 nm (or 0.2 to 1.4 µm, micrometres). These ranges include ultraviolet (UV) radiation (200 to 400 nm), visible light (400 to 700 nm), and infrared (IR) radiation (700 to 1,400 nm).

UV-radiation is divided into three ranges - UV-A (315 to 400 nm), UV-B (280 to 315 nm) and UV-C (100 to 280 nm). UV-C and almost all UV-B are absorbed in the cornea of the eye. UV-A passes through cornea and is absorbed in the lens of the eye. 

Secondly low carbon steel (or mild steel as it some times called) as used in pressed panels or more commonly used from the mill as rolled steel, has between 0.16 and 0.29% carbon, with rolled sheet steel for panel making being at the lower end for ductility during the pressing process.  Welding steels at either end of this spectrum will present no problem at all and only full metallurgical analysis will be able to tell the difference within the fusion material (I am guessing that you may have had something else going on when you had this issue) ?

I only point this out as I really don't think people understand the long tern effects of weld radiation both on the skin and the eyes.  Please be very careful, the damage is permanent.

Best wishes. 

Some UV radiation, visible light, and IR radiation can reach the retina. 

 

[Josef]

The photo of mine Pete is referring to was taken just after I'd removed the butt weld clamps. They're pretty handy for making flush repairs if you do wish to do so, and can work to some extent on more curved surfaces. It's great nowadays how easily you can come by examples of just how people are repairing various bits of car. That's why I've started sharing my photographs as I learned by looking at photos of what other people had done, and a few youtube channels (mostly Fitzee's Fabrications and Elin Yakov's Rusty Beauties - particularly his GT6 restoration), and figuring out my own preferred methods from there. 

[Pettifordo]

On 31/12/2021 at 12:51, Bfg said:

I do hope these comments are taken in the spirit of my trying to share helpful advice ..rather than damning criticism.

Thanks for the feedback and I don’t take anything as criticism - just useful points to add to my experience.

Yesterday I welded in some bracing bars ready for putting the car on the Rollover Jig.

This went well so I decided to finish this patch by filling in the holes - total disaster and blow loads more holes !!!!

My learning as follow :-

1) Don’t “quickly” try to weld anything - my mistake here was not to get the weld setting right before starting 

2) Don’t try to make things better by welding more and more

3) I now have chance to try @Bfg method as the existing effort needs to be cut out 🤣🤣🤣

4) Don’t weld without a mask / gloves / jacket

[Bfg]

^  sounds very much like my own learning curve

[Pettifordo]

@BfgBetter result with the plate behind method but still took time to get the patch to the right curve of the panel - but on the whole I think this method will be better on some of the other areas I have to do.

I had a gap between the patch and the hole which closed by hammering the lip of the hole towards the patch.

The end result is strong but not pretty 😱😱😱- but as has been said before it will be hidden once completed.

I even got some good “runs” where I could see the weld pool and what I thought I had welded actually looked like I imagined it would.

As the chap that coached me at the start said when I started - by the time I finish (about 10- 15 more areas to cover) I might be OK 🤣🤣🤣

[Colin Lindsay]

What's your gas flow like? What gas are you using? I ended up with what my bro-in-law calls 'pigeon-sh*t' welding due to poor gas flow.

[Pettifordo]

4 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

 

What's your gas flow like? What gas are you using? I ended up with what my bro-in-law calls 'pigeon-sh*t' welding due to poor gas flow.

 

@Colin Lindsay I had turned the gas flow down for these welds from 12 to 6 as I watched a YouTube video for my welder which said that 6 was ok. I will go back to 12 and see if it makes it better.

I think what I will do next time (on the other side, is to add a couple of self tapping screws before I start welding to pull the 2 surfaces tightly together as some the the “pigeon s**t” you see is me trying to “fill” a gap.

Once the welding is finished I can then grind off the screw shaft and spot weld then in place.

Will let you know how I get on 👍

 

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Pettifordo said:

 

Will let you know how I get on 👍

Please!! I'm learning from this too!

[Josef]

2 hours ago, Pettifordo said:

@Colin Lindsay I had turned the gas flow down for these welds from 12 to 6 as I watched a YouTube video for my welder which said that 6 was ok. I will go back to 12 and see if it makes it better.

I think what I will do next time (on the other side, is to add a couple of self tapping screws before I start welding to pull the 2 surfaces tightly together as some the the “pigeon s**t” you see is me trying to “fill” a gap.

Once the welding is finished I can then grind off the screw shaft and spot weld then in place.

Will let you know how I get on 👍

 

Good idea to check your shroud and tip regularly too. If the shroud has become fouled from splatter then the gas flow will be poorer, if the tip has distorted at all (I had one bend slightly) then the gas flow in the weld area won’t be uniform. Also be aware that unless you have a proper gas regulator then it’s unlikely you have a great deal of fine control over your gas flow (so settings of ‘6’ or ‘12’ may not really be uniform between your welder and the youtuber’s welder, or even very meaningful at all).

[chrishawley]

I've contemplated you photos and have some suggestions. But I know how dispiriting it can be to have others picking holes in one's efforts during the learning process.

Within the limits of the resolution of the photos I can see a) burn back, b) lack of penetration and c) severe porosity in places.

For c (porosity): assuming that the gas flow is good (say 8 - 10 lpm) a common cause is detritus on the reverse of the work area (rust, paint, underseal, wax). Ideally the reverse of the work needs to be pristine clean as the facing side. Not always achievable, but should be aimed for. Also, fresh mild steel (or CR4 say) may be coated in various ways for atmospheric protection which means it does not accept the 'strike' of the weld well. Linish everything.

Regarding a and b. Critical is having good sight of the weld bead as it is in action. One should be able to see the fine detail of the tip of the MIG wire as it goes about its job. I wear varifocals day to day but need special 6 dioptre specs so I can weld up close at about 9 inches. This means I can see the minutiae of the hot spot rather than 'point and hope'. And not having the auto dimming on the mask too dark so that one can't see. The lowest setting ('9') is often correct for lightweight work.

Next is torch control. The natural tendency is to try and control the torch position with a firm grip of the right hand (for the right handed). But this leads to intentional tremor and poor control (wander) of the hot spot. The torch should be lightly balanced in the right hand and position control provide by gripping the shroud of the torch with the left hand. Much the same as a snooker cue. The left hand needs to be firmly planted to give a decisive position. Related to this is 'kick back'. As the MIG wire hits the work it tends to push to torch backwards toward the operator if the torch isn't firmly controlled - and this may result is getting a superficial tack of weld which doesn't penetrate. Sometimes one needs to mentally push the torch into weld to counteract this tendency.

Also wire speed to consider. If the wire speed is too slow the weld will be silent (and result is tabs of poor penetration weld). Too fast and the torch will kick back sharply and tend to put a great blob of ineffective weld on the surface of the work.  The correct in between is where the weld makes a distinct 'bacon and eggs' sizzle - exactly that.  Frequently I will attach a dummy piece of metal adjacent to the work area (of similar thickness to the work) to check good sizzle before starting the work in earnest. Trouble is that many MIG sets have appalling calibration on the wire speed control and minute adjustment of the knob is required to get on the sizzle spot. On my SIF '5' is much too little (for power = 1) and '6' way over the top and correct is a gnats worth of adjustment in the middle.

Onwards and upwards! It comes with patience and rehearsal. If I get a chance later this week I see if I can find some photos to illustrate some of my suggestions above.

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/tutorial.htm

I've been reading this site recently... but can't do anything without an actual welder...