Front wheel bearing side thrust

[johny]

Ive found some wear on the large washer that retains the front wheel outer bearing, the one that goes under the castellated stub axle nut. When I removed it the bearing inner race has obviously been spinning against the washer and worn a slight groove and I cant figure out what would cause that.

The bearing set up is a strange design with it intentionally being left loose however I do like to keep the play to a minimum so have I not left enough? Or is there a problem with one seized brake caliper piston so that on braking pressure is being applied to one side only of the disc (brakes feel fine)?

Any pointers please....

[Colin Lindsay]

The large washer should be a D washer ie the hole is d-shaped and fits onto the profile of the stub axle. If it's only a circular ie 'normal' washer it'll spin and therefore wear. 

 

[Ian Foster]

2 hours ago, johny said:

bearing set up is a strange design with it intentionally being left loose however I do like to keep the play to a minimum

Jonny

You may like to consider fitting a bearing spacer kit, which comprises a precision length tube which sits over the stub axle and incorporates shims to set up the end float. The nut is then tightened to a specific torque. This stops the inner part of the bearing races rotating and wearing the stub axle and that washer. You don't state model, but I got mine for my GT6 from Shacktune.

One of the best 'mods' I have done and bearings seem to be very stable as a result.

Ian

[Paul H]

5 minutes ago, Ian Foster said:

Jonny

You may like to consider fitting a bearing spacer kit, which comprises a precision length tube which sits over the stub axle and incorporates shims to set up the end float. The nut is then tightened to a specific torque. This stops the inner part of the bearing races rotating and wearing the stub axle and that washer. You don't state model, but I got mine for my GT6 from Shacktune.

One of the best 'mods' I have done and bearings seem to be very stable as a result.

Ian

EBay Link 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143226142059?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=E1AMaQuhQeu&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=WOrzrqDcRZu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Paul

[Pete Lewis]

there are two design reasons the bearing inner races rotate on the stub 

1 you need to be able to remove the hub

2 the rotation is normal and makes sure the road load/impact wear is never in the same place as the race spins slowly on the stub 

and rear hubs are the same but the idea is reversed the inner race is fixed but the outer can and does rotate in its housing 

there will always over all these years be some rotational wear on the back of the D washer  its as it should and quite normal 

if in doubt turn the washer over wear the outside for another 50 years 

there is no end float on rear drive shaft bearings but there must be end float on the front hubs thats 0.002 to 0.008"  

heat from braking etc  needs some space to expand    no free play will quickly seize the outer race to the stub axle and thats a nightmare to fix 

Pete

[johny]

Thanks Pete, it is a strange idea but makes sense although, is the inner bearing inner race also free to rotate? Surely fitting the spacer kit Paul mentions then stops any race rotation?

I had already done as you suggest, reverse the D washer, but what threw me was the lack of similar wear on the other wheel🤔

[Pete Lewis]

yes a spacer fixes the rotation to stop 

yes inner race does the same but its all hardend so wear is less obvious (the D washer should be toughend )

its an age old design used for years on so many vehicles until casstte bearings and FWD took over 

 later cars dumped the castle nut and just used a nylock idea  ( think sierra was one)

one thought is the amount od chatter would be depentant on the endfloat 0.002" is felt at the rim  but 0.008" feels like its dropping off

with a lot of waggle at the rim 

Pete

 

[johny]

Yes I prefer 2 thou play.

Depending of course on mileage, potholes, speed humps and kerbs modern cars do seem to knock out wheel bearings quite regularly and I wonder if its worsened by not having rotation of the races...

[68vitesse]

1 hour ago, johny said:

I had already done as you suggest, reverse the D washer, but what threw me was the lack of similar wear on the other wheel🤔

That assumes same age of washer.

Regards.

Paul.

 

[Pete Lewis]

2 hours ago, johny said:

knock out wheel bearings quite regularly

as cassette bearing are pretty bullet proof i would hazzard a guess the rubber band for a tyre has more input to bearing failures on moderns 

Pete

[Wagger]

3 hours ago, johny said:

Yes I prefer 2 thou play.

Depending of course on mileage, potholes, speed humps and kerbs modern cars do seem to knock out wheel bearings quite regularly and I wonder if its worsened by not having rotation of the races...

Motorhomes are  in store for ages with the bearings set in one place. The bearings fail with monotonous regularity, and they are heavy duty vans. Some run-flats are another source of bearing and suspension damage. Which was cheaper and/or more 'Green'. Big rubber small metal, or big metal less rubber. Mind you, carts had skiiny tyres.

[Pete Lewis]

ive seen large cassette bearings on our 8 wheel trucks failed by not grounding the chassis when welding chassis mods , puts a lumpy track where the taper rollers 

meet the outer track , like its had a lightning strike  ,  you can really upset owners when you press the claim rejected button

and bearings are around £800 each x4   and that was circa 2002 

Pete

[Paul H]

Paul 

[Pete Lewis]

sorry ,  its a lot easier to nip the castle nut and back it 1 or 2 flats and fit new pin    whats the gain on all this faffing around 

0.002" float is .002" float how ever you engineer it with float it will still rotate ...as it should 

Pete

[johny]

I think its preload of 2 thou Pete or thats what the instructions say so no free play to confuse MOT testers....

[Nigel Clark]

9 minutes ago, johny said:

I think its preload of 2 thou Pete or thats what the instructions say so no free play to confuse MOT testers....

It looks from the instructions that 0 to 2 thou preload is the target. I understood that any preload can quickly wear the taper roller bearings in our cars' hubs.

Nigel

[Pete Lewis]

having seen welded up outer races joined frimly to the stub axle due to pre load i would not want to redesign this age old  engineered set up

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

The owners manual (the hardback Service Division Manual) I've just checked states 0.002" to 0.008". It also states to rotate the hub whilst tightening the castellated nut until 'slight resistance' is felt. This could depend on the Gorilla strength of whoever was testing, though. I still use the 'tighten to 5ft/lbs then slacken off one flat and mark position' idea; this is with no felt seal and no grease on the bearings. Then count the number of turns to undo, remove, grease the bearings, fit the felt seal, and retighten to the mark. Recheck after a few miles. The more modern InterEurope manual states to do it with the felt seal oiled and fitted, but this means removing it again to grease the bearings.

[johny]

I think that slight preload is ok on taper roller bearings (certainly is in the diff) and havent seen any complaints about the kit....

[Pete Lewis]

theres a difference the diff is oil lubricated by levels or splash  the front hub relies on the shuffle to repurpose the grease or its spun out 

and the diff temperature is far more consistently hot       , not hot and cold like a disc brake hub 

need to question if its OE design is a problem why has it lasted only 50 years with minimal servicing ???

Pete

[johny]

yes sorry diff not a good example but plenty of other cars with greased, taper roller wheel bearings that are preloaded though👍

[Pete Lewis]

dont you find most Must Haves come with a headache that Triumph original ideas doesnt 

 

 

[johny]

Not a must have though, just an alternative which some could find beneficial. Got to be open to new ideas as, you never know, might be an improvement😃 

[Wagger]

Some MOT testers do not understand bearings that have to have 'Play'. My Fiat Ducato Motorhome had 'Play' as designed. Only one station in three would pass it.

I do not take the Vitesse for an actual MOT. I use my old trusted mechanic who checks everything to it's spec. He owned a Vitesse and a 2500 saloon before they were ten years old. He won't present any car for test unless it passes his scrutiny. Quite often he has found an item missed by a test station. Usually something that they do not stock.

It becoming more difficult every year to find people who understand old stuff. "It's not on our computer and we cannot find the diagnostic socket"

Just taxed the exempt Vitesse. If it was a ten year old  2.5 litre petrol, it would cost about £300. Thats still four tanks of fuel. Maybe 700 miles. Insurance is £120. That's a third of my 2 litre diesel.

[Mjit]

On 09/06/2022 at 20:19, Wagger said:

Some MOT testers do not understand bearings that have to have 'Play'.

And sometimes a friendly MOT tester will tell you "There was too much play in the front wheels so I tightened them up for you".  I though that was great service...till the d/s outer race friction welded itself to the stub axel a couple of days later, on the motorway (thankfully only at ~40mph), snapping the axel.  Thankfully the brake disk/caliper were strong-enough to keep the wheel on and the weight on the inner race...