Advice please 1147cc Herald Engine

[Eric Smith]

Hi - I am looking for advice please.

I have started to restore and upgrade a 1955 Standard 8 car - the body work is done so it’s now time for the mechanicals.

The Standard 8 was originally fitted with the same style of engine only 998cc, since then it has been fitted with a newer 1147cc Herald engine. The car has been married to the original Standard 8 engine

I have a Spitfire gearbox but I would need to change the body work to make the Spitfire box fit - not keen on that idea, but I could get that done?

The engine is fitted with a down draft Solex BTE - 6G DG carburettor and according to the man who sold me the car, the engine has been completely rebuilt.

My questions are:

1. Best replacement carburettor without changing the manifold

2. Best replacement carburettor and manifold combination

3. Best electronic ignition

4. Best Spark Plugs

5. Best upgrades to give me the performance for long distance and motorway speeds

Thanks guys - once upon a time I would have known most of this but I have been out of the game for a long time, and if there is one thing I know - ask the people who know.

Thanks guys 

Eric

 

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

Just a quick answer, in passing: the gearbox is essentially the same bar the rear mountings / extension and the top plate where the gearlever sits; can these be swapped over to the Spitfire box? (In too much of a rush to check clutch suitability etc - apologies!)

Electronic ignition, go for the small in-cap version - search the electrics thread here for examples then source the model which fits your distributor.

I'll have more time tomorrow to look up other details, in the meantime some of the gang here will have more suggestions.

.

 

 

[Josef]

Why do you want to fit the Spitfire gearbox? I think the Standard 8s had all alloy ones? So you’re adding a fair bit of weight if you drop in a cast iron Spitfire one. If Colin is correct (and he probably is!) then swapping the internals might be an option if there is something up with the original/existing one?

[Pete Lewis]

agree cast bell HSg  weighs heavy ,  

the electronic idea is most are just electronic switching rather than mechanical switching  

you get what you pay for  from accuspark very cheap to aldon /petronix /lumenition far more expensive

all need to  know just what dizzy you have the base case will have numbers stamped in to identify

these kits are not universal and are dedicated to the guts of the unit /base plate 

way up the costs / points    they have lasted over 50yrs and all you gain is you dont have to check the gap 

the gear remote is very different to the Std 8 but would have thought the base gear case is similar??

so hole in florr would need modifying but the stand off of the ally  integral vs cast  is the same i think 

its long time since i played with 8/10s 

Pete

 

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

Morning all, more time this morning to debate!

The Standard 8 gearbox is all alloy, but different rear mounting and different top lever location. 

 

Very very close in many ways to the early Herald box. I'm wondering if the rear extension could be swapped for the Herald version, or vice-versa, and if it's as simple a job as just putting the Standard lever assembly on top? Securing bolts might be in different places but you'd need to compare one to the other and see if it's feasible and everything meets up.

As Johnny says a very light box, tremendous weight saving, but the fact that (I think) it's a one-piece construction you can't use the Spitfire box with the alloy bellhousing as it won't detach; but a Spitfire box with alloy bellhousing would mate to the 1200 Herald engine if the mountings can be swapped over for the Standard. The gear ratios are practically the same as the early Heralds - I assume the diff is different on the Standard so a Herald one can't be swapped over.

Re carb - if it's a Solex on the 1200 manifold there are numerous adaptors available for different carbs on the original manifold, I sold a few recently on eBay but if you want to change the manifold too, you could go for the twin-carb setup of twin SUs or Twin 125 Strombergs that were period fitments; look for an early Spitfire / twin-carb Herald manifold and carbs or any of the Alexander / Mangoletsi / Stanpart versions that come up for sale.

. 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Colin Lindsay
spelling

[Eric Smith]

To everyone who has replied to my request for information about upgrades to my 1147cc Herald engine fitted in my Standard 8 - first off, many, many thanks and I appreciate all of your advice and time spent on my behalf!

Thanks again for your advice and support, I have been trying to work out to reply individually, I gave up so I hope this will do for now?

When I asked about fitting the Spitfire gearbox, I knew that there would need a lot of modifications to the gearbox or car or both, so I was not keen on the idea BUT I have a Spitfire gearbox and I thought it was probably more compatible and better combination rather than the Standard 8 gearbox. If you all think the Standard 8 box is good enough it stays put.

I have been looking for a Spitfire inlet manifold and carburettors for a while, eBay and the other places I tried were very expensive or the suppliers have said they are none existent - a friend thought that a better quality single carburettor might do the trick BUT he did not know which one?  I once knew how to tune a single carburettors but I always got in a mess with two, so I left them to friends who were engine whispers, they always got me sorted. That was then when old carburettors were everywhere - sadly not so today!

Looking at the electrics, I want an Electronic ignition, I feel it is the right way to go, but again which one.

Better plugs again which ones, and as to upgrades, I guess the sky is the limit but without the right knowledge I am floundering, my friend said a lot of things but what is best for the car?

I knew a lot of the stuff back in the last century, the last time I took spanner’s and sockets to an engine in anger was 30 years ago, 2023 is a very different place and I have not got the contacts who I can go to for help, sadly most of the contacts I had are retired, given up their stashes of things or departed to and joined the great mechanic in the sky.

All of your help is important to me, the right advice is still king.

Thanks 

Eric

 

[Dick Twitchen]

Eric, 

Try giving Spitbitz a call in your search for parts.  The link has some clues and a telephone number.

Dick

http://www.spitbitz.co.uk/html/used_parts.html

[Paul H]

I’ve got accuspark for my Vitesse . Cheap and it works . I do carry spare points though just in case 

Paul

[Colin Lindsay]

9 hours ago, Eric Smith said:

Better plugs again which ones, and as to upgrades, I guess the sky is the limit but without the right knowledge I am floundering, my friend said a lot of things but what is best for the car?

I knew a lot of the stuff back in the last century, the last time I took spanner’s and sockets to an engine in anger was 30 years ago, 2023 is a very different place

Eric

 

Everytime I walk into my garage I'm back in the 1960s; Imperial measurements, old British and Imperial tools, the whole shebang with a few modern exceptions. The cars haven't moved on, so are still the same old mechanicals. If you could do it then, then nothing has changed. Keep it simple.

Spark plugs: avoid anything with 'R' in the code. Just fit simple one-terminal plugs, no dual or three-terminal 'wonderplugs' and it'll run fine.

I use Brisk NR15S, allegedly motorcycle sparkplugs - simple and straightforward internals and they seem to work fine. 

I have a few early twin-carb manifolds that will fit the 1200 engine, but no carbs fitted to them.

 

[JumpingFrog]

The Standard 8 axle ratio is a bit low for modern driving, either 4.875:1 or maybe 4.55:1. You can directly fit to the axle an early Herald 1200 or Spitfire differential, finding the exact one is tricky because at some point Triumph changed the size of the quarter shaft splines, around 1968. You need the earlier smaller type. This will give you 4.11:1, a little bit more usable on the motorway and will fit your existing half shafts.

However, keep in mind your speedometer won't read correctly, and I'm not sure what the speedo drive ratio is of the Standard 8 gearbox, I know this part of the gearbox is very different to the later Herald gearbox, so I'm not sure if simply fitting the speedometer from a Herald 1200 would be a solution to getting a working speedometer.

https://www.canleyclassics.com/?archive=different-differentials

It's type A that you want in this guide. This is basically the best ratio I think for your car, anything higher (like 3.89 or 3.63) is possible but is much more work and not a great match for a 1147cc engine.

Edited October 24, 2023 by JumpingFrog

[Josef]

Best is obviously subjective, but I think your easiest option will be to match a known 1147 engine spec, Herald or early Spitfire. That way you’re working with some variation of a standard setup and can buy carb needles etc to suit that known application. Going off that track means you’re more likely to have to do your own research and experimentation. Though perhaps taking inspiration from the Standard Triumph tuning options or SAH or other period performance retailers could be an idea if you want something extra. 

[rlubikey]

Hi Eric. Your 8 will have left the factory with the original incarnation of the Standard-Triumph "Small Car" engine, 803cc producing a mighty 26 or 30bhp (think the second figure might be the later high compression engines) while the 10 had the 948cc with 33 or 37bhp on tap. Your 1147 engine will have 35 to 51bhp, (or 67bhp in twin carb) depending on spec. (compression, cam, valves & carbs). (All figures from Graham Robson's Herald & Vitesse Complete Story pp.15)

I don't have a Standard 8 or 10 but I've gleaned a certain amount of info over at the the Standard motor Club forum, plus my Atlas has the same gearbox as yours. I believe I'm right in saying that you've got a 6-port head and this will restrict your choice of carb. You'll have to stick with a downdraft carb because the rear carb of the twin sidedraft conversion will interfere with your clutch m/c - or so I remember reading on the Standard forum. This probably rules out the highest power figures above (Spitfire with twin carb) so maybe 51bhp max? If you changed to a bigger engine with an 8-port head, the so-called "log" single carb manifold may work quite nicely and get really big power gains compared to the original 8 or 10 engine.

As for your the gearbox, I think you get quite a wide set of ratios which might perhaps be best for such a low-power engine, but how you like it may depend on your driving style. The only thing you get with the later gearsets is syncromesh on first and bearings on the layshaft, but you may loose the spread of gears. A nice addition would be overdrive, but the Standard tailhousing is suspended from an eye, rather than supported by a mount from a bridge below. Overdrive tailhousings were made but are comparatively rare. I have seen pictures of a fabricated example - 8n10 Spares perhaps? Fitting a later overdrive setup would involve some serious hacking around to incorporate the later Triumph arrangement.

I think I'm right in saying it's easy to just change the tailhousing if you want to swap in your newer box, but beware of knackered gears on second-hand small car boxes - it really is a lottery these days! You can put your "pudding stirrer" top cover on a newer 3-rail box but you have to machine a little fillet off something adjacent - the bellhousing or ... I forget what.

Changing the diff ratio is another easy modification to keep your sanity going down the motorway, as has been mentioned. But to what ratio? In my Atlas I found that it would pull away just fine in second gear so, knowing the gearbox ratios and stock diff, I could deduce what ratio would work putting first gear where second used to be (in terms of ratios I mean).

I hope this is of some help. If you haven't already done so, sign up on the Standard forum and hunt around for info. Maybe see you over there!

Cheers, Richard

[DanMi]

are we sure that the all aluminium gearbox housing of the Standard 8 is strong enough for a 1147 particularly with twin carbs? might be better to use the herald/spit box and bell housing with the 8 top/gear lever even though heavier

[Colin Lindsay]

11 hours ago, DanMi said:

are we sure that the all aluminium gearbox housing of the Standard 8 is strong enough for a 1147 particularly with twin carbs? might be better to use the herald/spit box and bell housing with the 8 top/gear lever even though heavier

It was certainly a problem in the underpowered early Heralds. They upgraded the gearbox to metal, then upgraded the engine afterwards; I'm now wondering if the upgraded engine and the early gearbox would actually be better as there would be less work for the gearbox with the greater power. One quote I found recently was that early drivers literally 'rowed the Herald along by the gear lever' with so many gear changes due to the low power. I have used the separate alloy bellhousing on two of my Heralds and it's a tremendous weight-saving, so it's an option here. I wouldn't go for a three-rail box due to the modifications required.

I'd experiment with a good single-rail box from 1200 or 1300, alloy bellhousing but with the Standard top cover and rear extension. 

I was reading Richard's post about the Atlas pulling away in second; early Herald handbooks recommend starting off in second, with first only used for steep hills.

[DanMi]

27 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I'd experiment with a good single-rail box from 1200 or 1300, alloy bellhousing but with the Standard top cover and rear extension

Colin I think you have that the wrong way around, the single rail was 1500 all 1200 and 1300 were 3 rail. There have also been about 3 designs of alloy bell housing, the early ones were weak.

[DanMi]

The other (and very important) thing to think about is brakes, if you are making the car go faster than originally designed then it really also needs to stop better! I have no knowledge of Standard 8 brakes but guess that they would be weedy drums all round.

[Eric Smith]

Hi guys.

I am currently away from home, I have only looked at the forum when I have had the chance and so far you guys have been brilliant, I am trying to take all of your info in, when I get the time I will get it all down on paper (an old fashioned idea I know) but I am old so that’s ok.

If the tv show “Mastermind” did a team show you lot would be unstoppable - I said initially I knew that talking to the right people was the right way to go.

You have shown by giving me your time and proven to anyone who may read all of this topic (who is in the same situation as me) - the internet and text books on any subject are only as good as the writers, as a group, you are proving to me that my belief in asking the right people is the only way to go!

Many many thanks

Eric

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, DanMi said:

Colin I think you have that the wrong way around, the single rail was 1500 all 1200 and 1300 were 3 rail. There have also been about 3 designs of alloy bell housing, the early ones were weak.

Ah b****** yes another blooper. 3-rail was what I meant. 

I definitely know of two alloy bellhousings, with the one-piece unit making three. They used more strengthening ribs in the heavier ones - were they for Spitfire? I fitted one to the lighter versions to my 13/60 so will have to see how it bears up.

 

[rlubikey]

3 hours ago, DanMi said:

The other (and very important) thing to think about is brakes, if you are making the car go faster than originally designed then it really also needs to stop better! I have no knowledge of Standard 8 brakes but guess that they would be weedy drums all round.

Good point! The 8 & 10 had drums all round. I don't know the size but I'd put money on the front drums being the same size as 948cc Heralds. The front vertical links are very similar to the Herald family, but from what I've read on the Standard forum they're not quite the same. Owners who have simply swapped report the steering geometry isn't correct.

If you want to upgrade to front discs it seems the best option is to track down a set of the early disc brackets. Apparently these bolt straight on and you can do the rest of the conversion in a similar manner to a Herald disc conversion.

Cheers, Richard

[Colin Lindsay]

25 minutes ago, rlubikey said:

If you want to upgrade to front discs it seems the best option is to track down a set of the early disc brackets. Apparently these bolt straight on and you can do the rest of the conversion in a similar manner to a Herald disc conversion.

Cheers, Richard

Did the standard use Girling 12 calipers? Just curious if the same upgrade to 14s can be done as in the Herald.

Next time you're on the Standard forum see if anyone has an aluminium hinge for an early gearbox, I broke one and am still waiting four years on for the In-Laws to machine me a new one. Don't need it, but still like to have it. I could even copy one if I could locate one.

 

 

[rlubikey]

Hi Colin. The Standard 8's & 10's were only ever fitted with drums. However, as the vertical links are (nearly) the same as early drum brake Heralds, they can benefit from the same disc upgrade. But if you try to fit the later Triumph vertical link with integrated caliper mounting arms the geometry is wrong for the Standard suspension. Without trawling through the forum, I feel sure type 12 or 14 calipers could be fitted, same as the Herald.

They've got a complete hinge and arm over at the Standard spares shop - Clutch Operating Arm Late 8, 10 and derivatives - but at £72 I wonder if that's what you were thinking of?

Another place to try is Standard 8 & 10 Spares Ltd. I can't see it on the web site but I believe it's just a one-man-band so might be worth asking?

Meanwhile, I've asked on the Standard forum if anyone has one. I'll let you know if something comes up. It's a much smaller club so may take a while for a response.

Cheers, Richard

[DanMi]

just appeared on ebay if intersted  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325859133382?hash=item4bdeb7c7c6:g:M~YAAOSwkV1lNnBs&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8LOdr8ZGEiT8eqi76k00yBVozSJ%2Flqub%2BaJCX2klC8actgAGDmMPd50Ng8qLHtaCTuPV5ynedjR1Fuqbbc3EL6mcThKLNtpw%2Fysyd1mj%2FErpprA%2F%2BahifOzFm%2BajyO31S%2B662mtxLOTMAoUg0GTU%2Fhx%2FANdLe9kwGj1Sfc51FBtdZur9qkt54R7nkYaARFIem1qxwG1LGIQEtdcPA9AUxcjVoiCm0vWvRfeh4bBsAoCXaXhjFCARi0NgNRCP8PpMeVt9UrCcCsFboDEbdn7aEcM4ZcEz7nq%2BYhe9X2lqyK9sFvIhm8VPV9UWWDJLVg3Buw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_q3-LzsYg

[trigolf]

Going slightly off topic, am I right in thinking that a young Stirling Moss used to have a ' souped up' Standard 8, with twin carbs and wire wheels etc?

[JohnD]

I fear nothing so plebian!  According to an interview with Moss Interview with Sir Stirling Moss (regtransfers.co.uk) his first car was a Morgan three-wheeler, although he drove an Austin7 and tractors  on the family farm and he rapidly went on to a BMW Frazer Nash to race in.  That car still exists, and races:

 

You can see Moss talking about it here: 

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

19 hours ago, rlubikey said:

They've got a complete hinge and arm over at the Standard spares shop - Clutch Operating Arm Late 8, 10 and derivatives - but at £72 I wonder if that's what you were thinking of?

Thanks, Richard - that's appreciated! Yes, that's the one - just need the hinge, but I know of that particular one - it's NOS, came from the stock of a deceased owner, and they wouldn't sell it to me unless I joined the club. Fair enough, I fully understand the concept of supporting the members but it added another £50 to the price. If I can locate another, or my snapped original, I can get one made for free. It may never be used in anger hence the reluctance to waste money.