Type 16P calipers - all Identical ??

[Guest]

Hello.

Probably an odd question.

Are all type 16P calipers, or for that matter 16PB or 14 calipers, the same no matter what the make of vehicle is ??

If not, what does the 16 or 14 stand for and if not the same for different marques is that due to the casting of the caliper body for different mounting requirements of different vehicles ??

Thanks in advance.

Richard. 

[Colin Lindsay]

Without knowing the exactly correct details I believe the number stands for piston size ie 14 were bigger pistons than 12 and 16 have bigger pistons still, regardless of the mounting points. As they weren't made by Stanpart I'm inclined to believe that the same calipers were used on different marques.

Type 14 have four bolts holding the two halves together while 12s have only two, so this may point to the bigger piston being able to exert more force on the disc.

Type 12 and 14 can be interchanged - usually upwards rather than downwards - as they have exactly the same mounting points, but 16s are different. 

I think that the PB calipers use metric connections while the others are imperial?

[Guest]

Hello Colin.

That all makes sense especially the fact that the lions share of the market was Girling & Lockheed at the time; so I would find it surprising if these companies made 12's, 14's or 16's to suit different marques - the tooling alone would be cost prohibitive I feel.

More likely different marques would have designed their vehicles to accept current production units, which of course has to be cheaper.

It's a Q I have never really thought about, but does have some interesting possibilities.

If anyone else can add to the mix, I will be grateful

Thanks.

Richard.

 

[Darren Groves]

Stolen from another forum:

Girling 16P Calipers
Imperial Threads - 3/8UNF bleed nipple
Piston dust seal - Type A

Girling 16PB Calipers
Imperial threads - 3/8UNF bleed nipple
Piston dust seal - Type B

Girling M16P Calipers
Metric threads - M10 bleed nipples
Piston dust seal - Type B

Darren

 

[Guest]

Thanks Darren.

Very useful as well; my gut feeling is that the mounting is identical but the piston set-up is different hence the different coding.

As such, my next Q has to be - what is the difference between A and B type seals ??

Regards.

Richard.

[Gully]

From another forum:

Within the Triumph family, the dust seals are different between early and late. Early dust seals fit into a groove inside the bore, later ones are held on the outside by a metal clip. I'm not positive, but ISTR they don't interchange, as the early calipers didn't have the surface where the later dust seals attach and of course the later calipers don't have the groove where the early dust seals attach. But the pistons and main seals are the same, and in a pinch you can leave off the dust seal.
 

Gully

[Gully]

My GT6 had 16P calipers when I bought it, which I replaced with 16PB (which are correct for the model year). So the two imperial calipers are interchangeable. The 16PB Metric calipers could also have been used - the mounting plate was unaltered when the switch was made, with just the fixing bolts gaining a shoulder where they pass through the larger holes in the calipers.

Gully

[Guest]

Thanks Gully, this is most helpful and the penultimate page on the attached link provides a pictorial explanation to the comment you have referred to regarding the seals.

Regards.

Richard. 

http://www.seinsa.es/archivos/Seinsa Repair Operation Manual.pdf

[Clive]

The metric type 16 also use a slightly smaller pad retaining pin.

This is the reason people who buy the rather excellent mintex 1144 material pads (only available as MGB633, metric type) have to open the pin retaining holes a smidge.

 

All the different type 16 from Triumph will swap.

The Ford M16 callipers have different mounting spacing. In fact it is the same as "our" type 14.

But don't get excited and thing you can just bolt a ford m16 onto a spitfire/herald upright, and swap the discs to GT6/Vitesse, it isn't that simple (the disc needs turning down a bit!) Another way of getting"bigger" brakes on a spit/herald is teh princess 4 pot calipers, or modern willwood etc copies, and using GT6 discs. Had that set up on a Spitfire, worked a treat.

[dave.vitesse]

The late Mk3 GT6 used metric 16 callipers along with the rear self adjusting brake system with wider brake shoes. The self adjusting rear brakes was a parts bin job as they were already being fitted to the 1500 FWD Saloon, though it should be noted that the GT6 backplate is different than the Saloon. The late Mk3 GT6  metric 16 callipers also use smaller pins. The pads correspondingly had smaller holes and unlike the imperial type every inch  (or should that be Metre!) of the metal backplate was covered with pad material. The good thing was it increased the braking area. But no gain without pain, as the pad material was now right up on the end of the disc, where it rusted, brakes squeak was a problem in the winter. Same problem with the Toledo and Dolomite.

So if you enlarge the holes in the later pads to use them on the earlier imperial system then ensure you either fit new discs or remove any rust (if not to rusty) from the ends of the disc. 

Dave   

[Casper]

Girling Type 16 Brakes.pdf

[dougbgt6]

Ah, the dread self adjusters that don't! I have contemplated reverting mine to manual adjusters to avoid the pain of wheel off, hub off, tighten up, hub on test, hub off etc etc.

As well as wider shoes there was larger bore brake slave cylinders, now hen's teeth availability. The servo, previously an extra, used to work on all four wheels. However, the beefed up rear brakes were too fierce with servo assistance. So the servo, now fitted as standard, was relegated to front wheels only.

[dave.vitesse]

I agree Doug, a I real pain.

Dave

[Pete Lewis]

we know Dougs a real pain       ha !

 

Pete

[dougbgt6]

Pete, the power of punctuation, you really should try it! 

 

 

[ahebron]

And oddly enough if you like unsprung weight you can fit certain Toyota Hilux calipers directly to type 16 mounts.

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/brake-conversion.shtml

 

Adrian

[Mad4classics]

On 21/10/2017 at 11:59 AM, dougbgt6 said:

Ah, the dread self adjusters that don't! I have contemplated reverting mine to manual adjusters to avoid the pain of wheel off, hub off, tighten up, hub on test, hub off etc etc.

As well as wider shoes there was larger bore brake slave cylinders, now hen's teeth availability. The servo, previously an extra, used to work on all four wheels. However, the beefed up rear brakes were too fierce with servo assistance. So the servo, now fitted as standard, was relegated to front wheels only.

Picking up on this point, the late 7/8" bore rear brake cylinder are no longer available.

When fitting the 5/8" cylinders, which are generally offered as a replacement; would it be correct to re-route the brake lines so that the servo goes back to operating on all 4 wheels?

David

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Mad4classics said:

Picking up on this point, the late 7/8" bore rear brake cylinder are no longer available

Hello David.

Are you sure ??

If so, where has that info come from ??

Just to clarify, you are speaking of the rear wheel brake cylinders to activate the brake shoes ??

Regards.

Richard

[Mad4classics]

For the very late GT6 the rear wheel cylinder was GWC1501. I can't find any stock of that part. Instead I'm offered GWC1121 with the caveat "must be fitted as a pair".

These are the brakes with the fiendish self adjusting setup!

David

Edited October 25, 2017 by Mad4classics

[dougbgt6]

Richard, I think David is correct, Rimmers and others "say no longer available" for the larger bore and offer the smaller cylinder. I would always replace both cylinders even if only one was faulty, but I think what they mean is don't fit 5/8" on one side and 7/8" on the other!

Rear wheel brake slave cylinder. I got into a fierce debate elsewhere over "slave". Chap was insistent I should only call it a brake cylinder, got quite aggressive when I directed him to a wiki hydraulics explained page. Some odd people about.

David raises an interesting point. When I got the trouble with my servo sorted out I tried it on all four wheels and then on front two only.   Definitely better on front only, the bonnet dips reassuringly, like a modern, while on all four the braking feels, vague. No, not vague, uncertain, not right.

However, I'm not sure what would happen if the smaller cylinders were retro fitted. 7/8" is 40% bigger diameter than 5/8". (Am I right? ) But the drums and shoes would still be 1/4", 20% wider. Oddly the drums and shoes are still available, but for how much longer?  Might be worth going back to 1.25" drums and shoes and four wheel servo?

I can only advise David to try both and see what he thinks and let us know. 

[Guest]

Hello David and Doug.

Many thanks for clarifying that and certainly worth knowing.

I will make some enquiries with a few traders who keep correct NOS hydraulic parts and see if they have any; if so I will report back should other Forum users need GWC1501.

Regards to you both.

Richard.

[Guest]

Doug & David.

Have just spoken with David Kingerley who is absolutely spot-on with his stuff and you will have seen him at all the usual large shows. Very decent chap, super helpful and supplies stock beyond reproach.

He does stock GENUINE Girling 7/8" rear cylinders at £45 each...........Girling number 64676011 (x-ref: GWC1501) and has about 30x in stock.

----------------

I mentioned about the alternative (GWC1121) that Rimmer's supply and he said dropping from 7/8" to 5/8" is a big drop under the circumstances. 

He has suggested using GENUINE Girling 3/4" bore rear cylinders at £30 each (Girling 64675534) or he does stock the repro ones at £14 each.

These rear cylinders are appropriate for self-adjusting brakes.

------------------

Hopefully the above may be of assistance for all club members in a similar situation.

David can be contacted via 07977.914.088 if you wish to discuss further and his website is www.obsoletecarspares.co.uk  

Good luck.

Richard

[dougbgt6]

Richard, thanks for that! Although there's nothing wrong with mine (I think ) I'm sorely tempted to get a couple for spare, but £45?!! Still, Christmas is coming and my assorted offspring could buy me some presents. But, thinking about it, retro fitting the old drums, shoes and adjuster would be a comparable price. 

[Mad4classics]

Thanks Richard. The £45 must be rarity value for NOS.

 

[Guest]

Doug / David.

When I spoke with DK, he said Girling did not repro the 7/8" hence the high price for the NOS item.

Personally if I was in this position I would certainly consider the Girling 3/4" units - they are genuine items, less of a drop than 5/8" and only £30 a piece.

Difficult call, but at least you know there are options which may help.

DK will be at the NEC, so pre-ordering anything from him will save on postage, that said he does not charge silly prices for that.

Doug - all the rear wheel cylinders I mentioned are for self adjusting brakes; do I take it that is what you have ??

Regards.

Richard.