Looking for a spitfire

[chris.eg]

Hi all.

I've always wanted a Spitfire, and have finally (more or less) decided to take the plunge. So, the limiting factor is that I'm looking at a pretty small budget to get something as solid as I can, preferably that would drive home to avoid delivery costs. There are a few that I'm looking at:

A mk3 (£2500) with a few little problems but has an MOT and sounds generally pretty good

A mk4 (£2350) not on the road since 1988, the few pictures look good (trying to get more) and apparently starts and drives. Also has new calipers, master cylinder, clutch slave and master cylinder

A mk4 with a really solid body and chassis, no seats/exhaust centre and back section, wiring not connected so obviously not running. It also has a 1300 Dolomite engine. Does anyone know if this counts as a "significant modification" and therefor not MOT and tax exempt?

Anyone got any advice? Know of any cars for sale elsewhere?

Thanks in advance,

Chris

[NonMember]

10 hours ago, chris.eg said:

A mk4 with a really solid body and chassis, no seats/exhaust centre and back section, wiring not connected so obviously not running. It also has a 1300 Dolomite engine. Does anyone know if this counts as a "significant modification" and therefor not MOT and tax exempt?

Definitely not a "significant modification" so absolutely no problems on MOT (and wouldn't affect tax anyway). The Dolomite 1300 is the same engine as a Mk4 Spitfire.

That said, you ARE going to keep it regularly MOT inspected, aren't you? You're not a fool, you want to drive a safe car, not a death-trap.

[chris.eg]

Yes, I would certainly get it inspected regularly... Don't want to die ? Do I understand correctly that if the car has not been used since becoming mot and tax exempt I would fill in a v112, take that to a post office instead of an mot certificate and have to pay tax as I wouldn't be able to declare it tax exempt without the v5 in my name? Then I would get the v5 in my name and reclaim most of the tax?

Out of interest, is the dolomite engine identical? I knew they were very similar but thought they had a different cam?

Thanks for helping me

Chris

 

[dougbgt6]

DVLA are easily confused so best to do one thing at a time! First change the name on V5, get the new V5. Then apply for tax exemption. No need to lay out any cash. My brother has done this with his new MOTless Spitfire. He's trying for an MOT sometime soon.

Once you have the 2nd new V5 go on line and renew your tax. You will be advised you will loose money for the remainder of the tax year, but as it's free for you it doesn't matter. As you go through the application you will be asked about "substantial modification" and that's it, MOT exempt. 

I've done it, it works. And yes, despite being MOT exempt I'm still getting MOTs, what this will do to the DVLAs system is not clear, auto destruct probably, does not compute!

I expect at some point there will be an alternate road worthiness test for the likes of us.

Doug

[chris.eg]

So could I potentially drive it home without doing anything about tax? Wouldn't I be in trouble if I got stopped?

Probably lots of dumb questions here, but having not done this before it all looks a bit of a minefield...

[dougbgt6]

Not quite sure which one you're talking about, Mk4?  No don't do it, if  the tyres are at least 30 years old they're dangerous. Tyres should be changed every 7 years worn or not.

Mk3, get the current owner to drive it to you? However, I would get it trailered. You don't know what your going to find, even with an MOT.

Doug

[Clive]

Remember that a car needs to be in a fully roadworthy condition to be used on the road. The simple/bulletproof way to comply is to have an MoT. Otherwise you may have to answer some questions about how you know the car was safe etc. And saying it looked OK won't do.

It sounds like you are looking at adverts. Adverts are written to sell the car, and although many are truthful with what they contain, there is often a lot of things that are not mentioned. So until you have had a good poke about under a car, you really won't know what it is like. The owner may be in the same situation, it all looks OK but they haven't had a good look about. One simple way of checking a car is to take it for an MoT, or if a car has an MoT look up its history online. It can tell you a lot.....

And don't get fooled by £200 of new bits that may have been fitted. You want to find a car that is sound and you know where the issues are (they all have issues, I know cars valued at £25k that have issues....) Best advice I can offer is to get along to a Triumph meeting, make some friends, get opinions and hopefully bribe somebody to go along and have a look at a car or 2 with you. I have done that in the past (a decent breakfast is a good bribe with me) and eventually we found cars that were decent but with known jobs to be undertaken...

[chris.eg]

Doug, that's a good point about the tires, thanks. I'd thought about oil, water etc but that hadn't crossed my mind.

I like the idea of going with someone to look at a few as although I have a fair idea what a car should look like I'm aware that there's a lot I'd miss. For instance, the mk4 with no seats, non running etc. What would I look at to have an idea if the engine/gearbox are reasonably ok?

At the moment I'd be looking to get something pretty solid but probably scruffy for up to £2500. Is this totally unrealistic? The more I look and think about this, perhaps it won't work

[Clive]

I don't see why not. But it may be a few viewings before you get a good one. That is all. And a knowledgeable pair of eyes is essential.

Likewise, no real magic way of verifying mechanical components without a good test drive. Even then not conclusive. But buying a running/mot'd car is the easy way forward. Recommissioning a car can be quite a challenge. Chasing down the many many small issues can be harder than it sounds, especially if you are new to old cars.

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, chris.eg said:

At the moment I'd be looking to get something pretty solid but probably scruffy for up to £2500. Is this totally unrealistic? The more I look and think about this, perhaps it won't work

No - that would be my idea of a car - solid but scruffy; you can then do any work required yourself and know it's been done to a good standard, and any money put into it will only increase the value. I've seen a lot of beautiful paint jobs that hid a nightmare underneath, and supposedly restored cars that were anything but. A good honest car is worth so much peace of mind. 

That price will buy you a good honest car that might - or might not - require minor tidying and improving.

[Nick Jones]

Unless looking specifically for a project I would be very wary of cars that claim to be ok (and may even have had recent bodywork and new paint), but have been off the road for many years.  They will invariably need more mechanical work than anticipated and may need quite a bit of work to get to to the point where the car can be driven properly and the reason for the original lay-up discovered.

Nick

[chris.eg]

That's good to know that I could find one. I would feel much better buying with someone to look at a few cars, but it doesn't seem there's much going on with the club around here Unless I'm looking in the wrong place?

Where do you think would be the best place to look for cars for sale?

[Clive]

https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/areas_google.asp

That is the local areas, so some near to you. 

Places to look? Ebay has allsorts, carandclassic website, even gumtree/local ads. You have to just keep searching.

Club adverts can be helpful, but prices are often rather hopeful. The same cars often later appear on ebay....

[chris.eg]

There don't seem to be many meets on the site for any of the local areas. Is there more happening than what is listed?

I have noticed the club advert prices seem high. Do people advertise there expecting to get significantly less than the listed price?

 

 

[dougbgt6]

Chris,

You're in Stafford? North Staffs area meet on the last Wednesday of the month, next Wednesday.  Follow Clive's link and click on North Staffs for details.

Doug

[chris.eg]

Thanks for all the input everyone!

I might well go along to that meeting. Would I need to pay club membership to be able to go?

What would be your op opinions on mk4s with 1500 engines and/or sports exhausts? As I am only 22 I imagine they would be more expensive to insure, and I'm not really clear if those cars would still need tax and insurance?

[Clive]

No need to join a club yet. When you are happy that you will buy a car, and that you like the club, then join. You can also find other local Triumph clubs to visit (though often you find TSSC etc meetings are inhabited by people from more than one club anyway, joint meetings are common)

Re tax/insurance. All cars need to be taxed and insured. If a car is over 40 years old the tax cost is zero, but it still MUST be taxed. Cars over 40 years old no longer require an MoT but MUST still be roadworthy. Expect to have to prove roadworthyness especially in the event of an accident. An MoT is the simplest way of doing that. I and sensible other owners of classic cars will continue to MoT their vehicles. 

Modifying a car will usually increase insurance costs. Especially for younger people. You need to get some insurance quotes, but a std 1300 mkIV spitfire will probably be cheapest. Have a search on this forum about young driver insurance, or start a new thread. You may get a few suggestions for where others have found fair prices. Do not expect it to be cheap, although if you have a few years NCD and especially if it will be a second car, that will help significantly.

[goldy]

Hi Chris

 

It looks like you have been getting some very good advice here on the forum, I'm the area organiser for the North Staffs Area and you are very welcome to join us at our next meeting at the George & Dragon at Meaford 8.0pm Wen 31st Oct.  

 

I would always buy the very best car you can afford even if you have to borrow some towards your budget, but finding the right car is not easy.

[NonMember]

I've always felt that the "buy the best you can afford" advice is poorly considered.

You're buying an old car. It's going to have niggles. You WILL need spare cash to sort them as you go.

You're going to need to repair things. The "best you can afford" will need all the same things repaired sooner or later so you're not saving anything there.

I would say, buy well within your budget but choose your battleground. If you're more comfortable with mechanical work, get one that's really solid but needs mechanical repairs. If beautifying paintwork is totally your thing, get a mechanically solid example with really bad paint. The jobs you can do yourself will have reduced its price so you get better value for money.

[chris.eg]

On 25/10/2018 at 10:54, goldy said:

It looks like you have been getting some very good advice here on the forum, I'm the area organiser for the North Staffs Area and you are very welcome to join us at our next meeting at the George & Dragon at Meaford 8.0pm Wen 31st Oct.  

 

Thanks I may well come along to that meeting. What happens at the meetings? Do people tend to come in their Triumphs?

On 25/10/2018 at 14:43, NonMember said:

I've always felt that the "buy the best you can afford" advice is poorly considered.

You're buying an old car. It's going to have niggles. You WILL need spare cash to sort them as you go.

You're going to need to repair things. The "best you can afford" will need all the same things repaired sooner or later so you're not saving anything there.

I would say, buy well within your budget but choose your battleground. If you're more comfortable with mechanical work, get one that's really solid but needs mechanical repairs. If beautifying paintwork is totally your thing, get a mechanically solid example with really bad paint. The jobs you can do yourself will have reduced its price so you get better value for money.

Really I'd be looking to spend up to £2500 ideally including work needed immediately to get the car roadworthy. I understand this will not get me a car anywhere near perfect, but I am ok with this. I'm not interested in a show car but am after one I can drive safely on a regular basis. A couple of people on here tell me this is realistic, but I'm not really finding many suitable candidates advertised.

A lot of the cars I find seem to be down near Devon. Do more people drive classics around there? Is there anyone in that sort of area that might be bribable to look at a couple?

Again, thanks for all the ongoing help everyone

[Colin Lindsay]

https://www.gumtree.com/p/other-cars/-1975-blue-triumph-spitfire-convertible-1500-with-overdrive-mot-tax-exempt-only-34k-miles-/1317642403

Spalding, Lincolnshire. Closer to you than Devon.

[Clive]

That is best described as a Zombie car. Last MoT expired 2012! Suddenly MoT exempt but I doubt it would pass one now, and really it ought to have a proper check over.

Try using this https://www.check-mot.service.gov.uk/ to have a look at a cars MoT history.

[chris.eg]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

https://www.gumtree.com/p/other-cars/-1975-blue-triumph-spitfire-convertible-1500-with-overdrive-mot-tax-exempt-only-34k-miles-/1317642403

Spalding, Lincolnshire. Closer to you than Devon.

I have been considering that one, although I wonder if the clutch needing bleeding is a coverup of clutch/gearbox problems. Seems that it would be worth bleeding it themselves to then be able to list it as driveable. I also don't like those indicators on the front wings

What do you think of this one https://www.gumtree.com/p/other-cars/triumph-spitfire-1967/1317088230

Clive, I see what you mean about the MOT, but I suppose on a budget I've got to make a compromise somewhere...

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, clive said:

 really it ought to have a proper check over.

I was sort of assuming that it wasn't a case of cheque in the post and wait for it to arrive... It's a bit harsh calling it a zombie, at most I'd say a light sleeper. There are a lot of things about it that will make it worth more than contemporaries, once back on the road. "Recent Respray, all welding done and new sills fitted in 2014/15, Manual Gearbox WITH Overdrive, leather seats, wall nut dashboard, storage rack and so forth. 2 sets of keys + more."
If you want to compromise Chris, than indicators on the front wings aren't the worst things. Very little could get that back on the road.

That Mk3 could be worse, if all it has going for it are 'combination lamps', whatever they are.... it's hard to tell until you see them in the flesh.

[chris.eg]

Obviously no one knows without going to see it, but what do you think the 1500 would be likely to need spending on it to get going, just very approximately to have an idea.