Bfg Posted January 14, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2022 ..This afternoon I got back to crawling under the car. I wonder if it will ever end ? I started off by undoing the eight still-fitted body-chassis bolts, but found the rear four were not tightened up anyway. The two new mountings I'd had added (duplicating the TR6 ones on the forward suspension bridge) were done up ..but not very tight. And the end two, at the rear of the chassis outriggers, were just rattling about loose. .. yet another source of rattle identified. ^ Oddly, I needed to drill a hole in the bottom of the outrigger to get the socket extension in. These holes were already in my old chassis, but not in this one ..so I wonder if the rear outriggers had been replaced with new generic sections. The second photo simply illustrates how to get the bolt, its washer (not two thin penny washers as again used here, but a proper thick body washer) and socket on / off that extension (..without their dropping down into / along the chassis rail !) Anyhow, back to lifting the body .. I just slackened-off the front mounting bolts, and the same on the left-hand-side of the car, to help keep the body-to-chassis alignment, before jacking under the driver's side sill to lift the rear end of that side of the body up. It raised an inch but then seemed hesitant, so I looked around and at the exhaust to see what else might be holding the body down. I found the front-right diagonal strut bolt, which I had slackened off was not yet slack enough, and (..like a twit ) also discovered that I'd forgotten to undo the bolt through the centre of the boot floor / spare-wheel well. Thankfully with my monitoring / feeling the lift - nothing was overly stressed. The steering column was sorta interesting though, because I assumed some degree of lift would be possible through flexing its rubber donuts. I checked to see if it still moved freely and it did, but that was because the spline to the bottom UJ was also loose. Without the steering wheel on to restrict its movement - it moves up n' down quite freely ! ..Well done M&T's sub-contract mechanic you've once again surpassed yourself. I'm just very glad you don't work on aircraft or else in a hospital ! But yet another source of rattle identified. - - - Moving on, or rather upwards, the body tub (measured above the trailing arm pivots) raised by about 2". That was enough for my needs, which was to get in with a power wire brush ..to locally clean up and repaint the underside of the floor, just above those pivot brackets. . . ^ The first inch of Lift off. I had already started to clean flaky paint and surface rust off that underside slope ..which is why it looks tan coloured, but then I noticed the top plate (a TR6 T-shirt top plate) on the chassis, had a slight gap under it, perhaps 1/8" (3mm) in some places. That was very odd, until I prised it up (2nd photo, with long screwdriver coming in from the RHS) and discovered that it hadn't been welded.! Seam sealer is great for keeping running water off, but it's Fxxx useless in terms of structural stiffness. Man was I upset. After all the trouble and expense to (..as I see it) improve this chassis's structure, which included my providing labelled-illustrations and photos, I get this . ! ? I have spoken to Mark today, and clearly there was a misunderstanding, as we did at the time discuss their structurally bonding the forward extension of this plate down (..I wanted the T-shirt plate extended as far forward as possible.. to the gearbox mount) ...but that objective might be hampered if there were problems fitting the exhaust. In my mind the task would simply be a matter of temporarily clamping the plate in place and attempt to fit the exhaust pipe. If it went in.. then great the plate could be welded (like it is on the TR6). If not, then the forward part of the plate could be shortened or else it might be structurally adhered in place. Nowhere did we discuss the use of seam sealer to just bed the plate on.. It just goes to show how two persons, speaking the same language can understanding things quite differently. My focus was on the one car, whereas his attention was most likely spread across a host of different business matters all happening at once. Again I need to just accept it and move on. In any case., some might say "whats the big deal ?, the TR4A has a bridge over the chassis instead of that T-shirt plate." My reply would be along the lines - that it was an upgrade I'd specifically asked for and which had been agreed on, and so that opportunity (from a structural point of view) and the money spent on buying these panels, was wasted - because now its just sitting there on purposefully flexible goo.! I'll now deal with it as best I can. As I cannot get in there with a welder with the body on, and although a body mount does go through this T-shirt panel (on either side of the driveshaft tunnel) I'm now faced with drilling and adding more bolts to secure it. huff ! - - - You may also have spotted the lack of rubber strip between the body tub and the chassis rails.. I'd noted while working within the interior, that the floor in certain places would metallically contact the top of the chassis. A body mounting kit had been bought and I presume fitted, so I expected to see those rubber strips everywhere they should have been, but perhaps missing a couple of lengths on the extra chassis rails I'd specified. Not so, I haven't investigated further forward but there's certainly none under the back end of the floors nor for the side rails. Despite the body tub predominantly sitting on reinforced-rubber body-mount pads, Triumph also saw fit to use rubber strips ..to prevent the possibility of the pressed-steel floors chattering against the chassis ..both irritating rattle(s) and, as this car previously experienced, exposing metal where paint chafes away. The rubber strip also serve double duty as anti-drum pads. Again., yet another possible source of rattle identified. - - - In the meantime..., back to the task in hand, very locally cleaning up and treating the underside of the floor . . . ^ despite limited and awkward access the underside of the floor panel cleaned up pretty well.. The inside face of the sill (2nd photo) was not so polished, but at least there's not rust holes through it. This painted over is, at best, a rolling resto' make-do. Without this effort - I'm guessing it would likely rust-through within a year of all-weather use. Hopefully though, a good coat of paint will keep the wet out and give me a couple or more years of use, before this inner sill will need replacing. Who knows.. I might have actually started driving the car in that time . ! ? ^ POR-15 is again used as a barrier. Once that's dry it'll be painted over again, so road water splashes will more easily run off. I'll also look in to wheel arch liners. That's it for today. Not a good day for myself, nor indeed for my dear friend Rich. My sincere condolences to him. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted January 15, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2022 Aargh.. Now I'm really seeing RED ! . . . . . . Have a good evening, Pete p.s. I tried to give it a stipple finish but it didn't work very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted January 16, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2022 I can't believe the psychological difference this flash topcoat of paint, underside the car, has on me. My attitude is changing from the car being an "acceptably tidy car from 10 -15ft away" to a car that is being 'nicely restored and is well on the way to being a good example' ..whereas in truth I'm just tarting her up in places ..where no gentleman ought to look. Not only that but I'm actually enjoying doing this painting, despite it entailing my crawling around on the floor like a fat pink worm on cold concrete slabs ! hey ho., I hope to enjoy it ..for however long this refreshing attitude lasts . . . ^ this afternoon I continued painting the underside of floors and the body tub, wherever I could reach, but particularly where (when lowered again) it will be near-resting on the chassis. These two piccies show the underside of the spare wheel well and the body's step over the rear axle. ^ the outside edge of the floor and the inner sill plate, with it's body mounts. ^^ the underside of the driver's foot well. Tbh It's looking in much better condition than I realised. I'm 65 years old and I'm sure my thinking that is a first ..with any car I've owned ! Bidding you a very pleasant Sunday evening, Pete. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted January 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2022 I am well pleased with this Johnston's red paint. And with it being spirit rather than water-based I hope it'll stick well and then do its job ..which of course is to help shed road dirt and moisture off. This afternoon was pretty darn chilly out.. but lots of break-dancing type spinning around under the back of the car kept that well at bay. Unfortunately though I had more welding to do, which I'd spotted before - but now was the opportunity. . . ^ again the MOT man with the white stick missed this loose body mount, even though it was very much clearer to see from the underside ..because it has a flipping great rust hole through it.! I'd spotted this bracket's bottom flange, which under-laps and should be spot welded to the underside of the spare-wheel-well, was adrift when I first investigated why the body was sitting low on the driver's side. Only in scraping it clearer of underseal & seam sealer today did I realise that one of its side flanges was also loose, from top to bottom, and there were perforations (albeit only dime-sized) through the panel into the wheel-well. Of course, there was a whole lot more cleaning out of seam sealer, rust and crud too. In the circumstance ..of the body only being 2" above the chassis ..and so very limit access between the mount and the chassis rail for cutting or grinding tools, I managed to tear the rusted underlapping flange off ..back to the rust hole, and then set out to replace that with new. ^ Inside the spare wheel. The upward ones follow the run of the original spot welds. I drilled through-holes to be plugged with weld, from both sides, and then used a couple of self-tapping screws to hold the body-mount-bracket tight to the side of the well. The through-holes in the floor are likewise to plug-weld the bracket's new bottom flange on. The set screw with washer simply held it in place for welding. ^ Work-in-progress. Aside from the plug welds I added a few more tacks around the outsides of each flange. All in all, that may have seemed a five-minute job, but from first to last of these piccies took me 3-hours.! ^ I used copious amounts of zinc spray-paint inside the bracket and into the edges, let that dry and slapped-on the red. It wasn't pretty before so I expected little else when I was done. ..but at least it's secure again. NB. the shadow / bottom corners (both front & back) were deliberately not closed with seam welding ..so road water inside the bracket might drain out. Oddly, that bracket is wide open to spray off the tyres. The inside plug welds linished off nicely. The last remaining perforation is plated over from the wheel-arch side, so now it's well flooded with zinc and paint, I'll simply seal over it on the inside as I redo the bottom inside-corner seam. - - - While at this end of the car with the welder . . . ^ I did this same task with my previous, also bright red, '66 S-type Jag. It is of course the hole in the middle of the spare wheel well, through which the tie-down hook attaches to the chassis. As such I guess it ought to be considered a body mount too. In any case I don't want a split-edged hole, so I welded a disc to its underside. Just hope I've got this hole in about the right position.! ^ I then added another very large washer to the inside. Thereafter lots more zinc, and a splash of colour. . . . It took me all afternoon to do just those two jobs ..so I could never make a living doing this professionally. But who knows, perhaps I've eliminated another two sources of rattle ? Bidding you a good evening with toasty warm toes .. quite unlike mine at this moment ! Pete. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted January 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2022 After a couple of days off, this afternoon I did a little pottering around rather than real work. Thought I'd deal with the T-shirt plate. On 14/01/2022 at 23:23, Bfg said: ..to locally clean up and repaint the underside of the floor, just above those pivot brackets. . . ^ The first inch of Lift off. I had already started to clean flaky paint and surface rust off that underside slope ..which is why it looks tan coloured, but then I noticed the top plate (a TR6 T-shirt top plate) on the chassis, had a slight gap under it, perhaps 1/8" (3mm) in some places. That was very odd, until I prised it up (2nd photo, with long screwdriver coming in from the RHS) and discovered that it hadn't been welded.! . . . . . I'll now deal with it as best I can. As I cannot get in there with a welder with the body on, and although a body mount does go through this T-shirt panel (on either side of the driveshaft tunnel) I'm now faced with drilling and adding more bolts to secure it. Whether or not anyone else thinks having the top (TR6) T-shirt plate on a TR4A chassis is worth the bother is not really the issue - It's something I wanted as part of the chassis mods., so this afternoon I set to bolting it in place. . . ^ first up I decided to drill and tap into the chassis, where the TR5 & 6 have their seat belt mounting hole. The T-shirt plate was drilled to just clear a 5/16" UNF bolt, and then the chassis was drilled and tapped for that bolt. Although there's only a couple of threads into that thickness of chassis - any movement here, between the T-shirt plate and the chassis, would be in shear ..and so that bolt needs to be a good fit but not that tight. With that on either side, plus the standard TR4A body mount alongside the rear tunnel gives four fastenings for the plate, and so I added a couple more ..in the back inside corner of the floors . . . ^ Drilling into the rear corner, though to the chassis, not only allows the T-shirt plate to be clamped under it, but it is also where there is a corner gusset reinforcement (to the rail onto which the trailing-arm-brackets are mounted). In short this means - there's twice the thickness of steel to tap those bolt threads into. Furthermore and rather importantly ..to my nerdish way of thinking . . . ^ The new inside-bottom-corner mounts tie in nicely with the TR6 style chassis to body mounts, I specifically had added on the step next to the inner arches. On the chassis these body mounts are immediately adjacent to the suspension's spring hangers. The new inside-bottom-corner mounts also offer load-path-continuity along the rear chassis rail to the sill's rear body mounts. All together they add cross-bracing (signified by blue lines) of the body-tub combined with chassis, that was absent from the original. Possibly this helps clarify the significance of the T-shirt plate and why I required for it to be secure. OK., I'll close the door on the way out. . . Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted January 29, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2022 Just over a week later and I'm still wrestling with motivation, however 'upset' and poor health (..and yes they are related) have slowed progress.. Still as always ; smalls steps in the right direct are much better than a leap or two backwards (..but more of that later !). Having previously worked from the RHS rear wheel-arch, back to the body mount, then forward along the near-side's sill, and across under the spare wheel well.., the delectation to now be relished was to continue with much the same on the LHS (nearside) of the car. Again my objective was to clean up, to check, and to hold-in-check the condition of the underside of the body tub. Again starting under the (LHS) rear wheel arch. . . ^ This is the corner of the inner wheel-arch where it steps over the rear axle / suspension, and like the RHS of the car the thin metal panel of the rounded corner had failed. On the RHS the plate had crack through, whereas on this side it had buckled and was just beginning to crack. Note the vicinity of the new (TR6 style) body mount immediately adjacent to this corner. Again I made a thicker doubler plate to fit behind the original corner. Holes are of course for its plug welding. BTW., the silver paint on the inner wheel-arch inverted bulge (to allow the seat to move 3-1/2" further back) is aerosol zinc spray. This is useful for spraying into any cricks & crannies, for seeing more clearly into corners, and of course to prevent ones lungs going rusty ..for years after you're dead ! The rear body mount on this side had already been welded up by a prior owner in much the same way as I did it on the RHS. And again I added a large thick reinforcement washer to this side for through-bolting the recoil seat belt to. NB. measured and drilled from the inside of the car, this hole is 10mm further back from the step's edge, because the mounting position of the recoil mechanism is asymmetric. - - - Moving forward was where my discomfort of working on cold paving slabs, in cleaning off the crud and any loose under-seal, as well as my having to weld under a wheel-arch.. turned to my upset. Having paid a whole lot of money to a "concourse winning restoration body shop" (M&T Classics) to rebuild Katie's LHS sill, and at the same time to improve that side's rear door gap.. after clearing away the goop (aka ; seam sealer ) I was faced with this . . . . ^ work in progress, as you can see the professionals goop is still over the bottom flange, but the end cap not being attached to the downturn of the floor was (.. I thought) inexcusable. For cost reasons, I opted not to have the sill finished in body paint by M&T., but the agreement was that it would be prepared and ready "in (I presumed in a good-quality) primer ready to paint". That was clearly not what I was seeing. The second photo more clearly shows how the old outer-sill was cut off through the down-turned flange of the floor, and then a new plate has been tacked in place to restore its dimension to the bottom. Unfortunately the new plate wasn't quite tall enough, so its spot welding along the bottom became edge tacks (which structurally are not the same). And, as you can see, its bottom edge didn't come down quite far enough and then slightly raised towards the front. ^ further forward, as it was.. with no primer but a smear of goop, and yet also clearly evident of their stitch welding (from the outside before the outer sill was fitted) of the extended downturn flange - having blistered the original paint and under-seal away. This is a shameful example of British workmanship.. with rust initiated from day one. I hadn't appreciated that despite having paid extra for wax-oil injection - it didn't include the sill. 2nd photo, after wire brushing. Clearly the flange isn't quite deep enough, in fact for most of the sills length its short by 1/4" (6mm) with 5/16" (8mm) or more in some places. That does not seem a lot, but because the bottom flange of the repro outer-sill-panel is not quite 1/2" (12mm), that inside edge was where spot or plug welds ought to have been. So instead it's been edge-tacked. Typically these are 1-1/4" to 1-/1/2" (30 - 38mm) apart. I'm no authority but my understanding was that DVLA requires welding of structural areas (ie., within 30cm of a body mount) to be of equal specification as original (accepting plugs in lieu of spot welds) or else continuous - so I wouldn't have thought this would pass an MOT. And yet I have the piece of paper to say that it did.! For reference, you might compare the (above) work by M&T, with a post from Stuart (last June) where he shows how it ought to be done < here > . . . ^ Lovely job Stuart, and using a NOS Stanpart panel for better fit. I'm sure the additional cost of that was saved in fitting and finishing labour costs. I don't know what the spot welding is in the inside of the end cap though. Moving to the front ..of Katie's newly rebuilt sill, and things get no better . . . ^ More goop, which when wire brushed out revealed no weld between the bulkhead and the sill's end cap. (NB the bulkhead repair appears old / done by a previous owner). I simply cannot understand why the welder should not have done this, while he was already here with his welder. For the time being I have welded the end caps, front and rear. But before going further I'm in a quandary as to whether I should do more to improve what's been done along the inside and bottom edge, or else to remove the outer sill and the new down-turned flange and to rebuild them, or to just leave it as is ? The outer sill visually aligns well from the side view, but that panel's fit or incorrect shape means the bottom-relief of the wings (front and rear, which steps out from the bottom of the door line) now sit 3/8" 10mm wider than the sill (..just seen in light-yellow colour primer to the right of the above photo). Before the car went to Wolverhampton, the old outer sill was a decent shape between these panels, it was only the rear door gap which was wrong. Now I seem to have paid a huge amount of money to replace one problem with another. When I spoke to Mark about this panel alignment (..before I noted the inadequate welding) he said, and I paraphrase.. "the front and rear wings were probably repro and so the alignment would never be great, and that ..had they been painting the sill, they would have first lead-loaded the panel to correct its shape". 3/8" thick lead weighting down the length of one sill, huh ! I didn't argue the matter that I'd expected the agreed 'in primer ready for paint'. - - - And now for something completely different . . . While under the car getting myself filthy, but nevertheless making slow but steady progress cleaning up fraying paint edges and otherwise checking that things were pretty much as they were supposed to be, I spotted this .. ^ Note the lower wishbone mountings. I couldn't believe my eyes. The chassis was sold as upgraded "with all the usual strengthening mods done". And Katie's suspension was removed, and cleaned up before being swapped from the old chassis to this one, and yet despite the bolt holes being there (and that M&T have a huge stock of TR parts on their shelves) the lower wishbone brackets had not been swapped for two-stud ones. Not even decent sized backing plates or washers. And to then have reused the nyloc nuts ? From a restoration company that professes to be TR specialist, Is it not professional-incompetence to not even ask the customer if he would want these changed.? After all, even to a cheapskate - what is the cost of a set of used 2-stud TR6 brackets and eight new nylocs ? ...after spending such a huge amount of money to have the chassis upgraded, so the car would be safe. If I said no, then be it upon my head, but them to say nothing, and for the sake of £30 (retail) to not swap those brackets . . . is unbelievable It gets even better though . . . ^ on the left hand side, rear lower wishbone mount - this chassis had already had one of the brackets ripped out. The plate welded over the top of the hole has two stud holes. And Mark knew and saw this himself, because he hand-painted this chassis with the POR-15 I'd supplied. As an engineer I consider patching over the top of a ripped-out plate to be very poor practice. Much better to cut out the damage and to inspect everything very closely to see if there are any hairline cracks or other damage that wouldn't otherwise be apparent. But I can appreciate that many an unschooled mechanic might weld a similar thickness of plate over the top and think that must be as strong as it was. And with honest regard for the few who do think beyond their immediate eye line, the typical unschooled mechanic misses the consequences. . . ^ with a plate slapped onto the face of just one chassis mounting, the wishbone bush bracket sits 1/8" further out, and so it's no longer in axial alignment with the front wishbone bush. And that twist of the lower wishbone would take its wheel hub mounting / king-pin further forward, which in turn effects the castor angle. This might be compensated by packing out the front bush mounting, but then does that still work with the wheel's camber.? As it is this side of the suspension has be reassembled with no packing / spacer(s) in the front bush bracket, so (likewise twisted) each bush will be prone to accelerated wear. Conversely the RHS of the car has two spacers (each 1/16" ?) under both brackets - which I gather is usual. As I've now been working on the gearbox or under the car pretty consistently since she came back in July, I'm rather very upset that the task list has again been added to. My objective was to get the underside of the body shell painted and the body mounts all back in place by the end of January, so that I might get back to putting the car's interior in, and then get on with fitting the surrey top. But now I'm faced with both the sill and with replacing the wishbone brackets. I've never done the job, but I'm certain it'll not be just-a-five-minute-job ..when working outside in February. I've tried to be very understanding of Mark and how sloppy mechanical practices could slip by unnoticed by him, but following the chassis T-shirt plate being gooped-on rather than welded, failed body mounts, such body-shop issues as the sill, and now being faced with more working under the car / the front suspension - I feel as if I've been caught by my short and curlies again. I've been trying for the past 12 months to accept a more Stoic / understanding attitude ..but tbh the pent-up upset / frustration is have a noticeable effect on my health. I don't know what to do about these conflicts, so I bottle things up and get on with what I can. . . . ^ The welding on top was not mine, nor the piece of angle iron. I just cleaned the goop out and welded down the downturn to end cap joint, before flooding everything with zinc ..and then the red. It's presently a goop-free zone ! The wings will have to come off at sometime to keep their condition in check, but I'm hoping not to do that this winter. ^ until I decide what to do, I've again sprayed crevices with zinc and brushed in the red. I have absolutely no problem with tearing that paint off again if and when I choose to do something more with this 'issue'. It may seem illogical to leave it, but for the meantime - I just need to move on. ^ Similarly with with the front of the sill, the front body mounts, all the edges around the inner arches, which restored 22+ years ago were in remarkably very good condition, but now in need of a little TLC ..to help keep the damp out. The front valance panel had a fixing screw missing, one along the top of the RHS front wing likewise, and then also the three wing to A-post fastenings were left out too. And so it goes on.. I am so (physically) tired. - - - Progress yes, but two leaps backwards as well. I bid you warmth in your home, good fare on the table, and a peaceful state of mind. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted January 30, 2022 Report Share Posted January 30, 2022 to find these mis givings when you had faith in a job well done only to find its plagued with the works of the X Spurt think we all understand the frustrations you keep facing it will arise from the ashes of pain and much Tea drinking its good you spot the errors as you proceed but dont loose heart just blasted anoying when you feel youve paid out good funds and despite the good vibes got a corner cutting result it does happen a lot we cant all DIY every job but that has the advantage of you know youve done it or even bodged it , not a wallet stealing half a job Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted January 30, 2022 Report Share Posted January 30, 2022 Just now, Mathew said: Look forward as looking back only gives you a crooked neck! Some summer motoring is only a couple of months away! Sign in my Son`s Toilet (no idea why there?) "Don`t look back, Your not going that way".😁 History only exists to learn from. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josef Posted January 30, 2022 Report Share Posted January 30, 2022 I know exactly how you feel. When ripping apart the Spitfire I’d had ‘professionally’ repaired and painted I kept thinking how it was that I, a complete novice welder/fabricator, could be doing a more competent job than somebody who made a living from this work. Some of it I figure is that welding and car panel repairs are not the same thing. You need to be able to weld to repair a car body, but cleaning up, cutting, and welding two bits of metal together is really pretty easy. (Re) building up the complex shapes of a 50+ year old car body requires the ability to weld, but is not the same skill, and is definitely the harder bit. So someone hired as a welder may not actually be a decent (or even competent) fabricator… Anyway, progress is progress, and at least you’ve identified these problems before they became even bigger problems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badwolf Posted January 30, 2022 Report Share Posted January 30, 2022 Pete (BFG) - I have an idea as to how you feel. I felt very similar feeling when I saw how the 'profesionals' had fitted my rear leaf spring (which you probably read about) having failed on the MOT for having a broken leaf and then passed the replacement which they had fitted dangerously, yet they continually get away with it and nobody realises the potential deathtrap that they are driving because it has an MOT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted February 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Thank you Gents ..although I'll continue to cuss about having to crawl under the car to correct things - I just have to accept that things which might, and perhaps even ought to, be flagged or else should have been done, were simply not. 'Why' is almost irrelevant to me, that is a matter for Mark to address, should he feel the need to do so. Unless one has absolutely everything down in writing and signed by both parties, the client to service-provider emails and face-to-face discussions & telephone conversations amounts to nothing more than "a sort-of-understanding" ..which may interpreted in different ways to according to one's perspective. Thankfully, although frustrating, no harm was done by way of road-accident, nor injury, nor even further damage to the vehicle. As as design-engineering professional in the automotive and then marine industries, I was subject to professional ethics & due diligence, whereby if I was even concerned about the safety of the item I was working on (whether or not I was responsible for those aspects of the design) I was expected, nay obliged, to bring my concerns to the manager or a Director's attention. If it was a potentially very serious matter - then I'd make sure there was a paper trail, which aside from covering my own donkey.. also encouraged the Manager to pass that concern upwards to cover his ! When working on design of seriously-offshore sailing vessels there were many instances where vessel and life might be put at risk (in the Southern oceans even large sailing yachts can roll over, loose their mast and otherwise become awash). Still, I know as a matter of fact that, many of those concerns were never acted upon, as was evident in the keel dropping off a certain 82 Oyster yacht ..and the vessel quickly sinking. So even in that white-collar-professional environment the system didn't work (..thankfully there are better procedures in the aircraft industry !). Very likely, because I had a long career of such responsibility and working to such ethics, my expectations of a farm-building restoration company were unreasonable, not least because my 'understanding' and theirs were as if in a different language. I simply have to accept it, try to learn from the experience, and to move on. But that doesn't mean I won't get pretty verbal now and then.! Yesterday I was again contorting my ungainly and aged bulk underneath to wield the potentially lethal cutting-disk grinder (it is very intimidating ), and then to be laying under the sometimes splattering weld ..so was my language reflected not the sweet and full of the joys of springtime. ^ In setting the body back down onto its mounts, I'd discovered was that the rear exhaust bracket was sitting too high and so the body tub (actually the spare wheel well) was resting upon it. With the body jacked up, but still less than 3/4" above it, and with working around the exhaust silencer, it either had to be reduced in height or else removed. Lessening its height wouldn't work for the bolt to the exhaust strap and so I decided to cut that bracket off ..which was welded to the top of the cross tube .. ^ Awkward little bracket and vicious high speed grinder (not to mention the white hot sparks !) ^ same bracket reshaped to be 3/8" (10mm) lower, and then re-welded in place. ^ repainted with POR-15 and the red underside of the body also touched up. The other side was easier because it had been welded on at a cock . . . ^ On this side the rear inside corner of the bracket was digging in, so I simply cut that corner off, cleaned things up and repainted it. Another 5-miute job done ..that literally took me 2 hours. - - - Next job was the bottom LHS rear wing fastening to the sill. Its new spire clip was snapped into pieces. With a strong magnet and small screwdriver I managed to retrieve three of its bits out. I think one piece is still inside. I'll be painting and then wax-oiling within the sill so that should stop it rattling. I cleaned up an old but good spire clip to replace it and repainted that with zinc, but when I came to fit it discovered it would not fit . . . ^ just inside the round screw hole you'll see the sill's end cap. The distance between this and the hole is insufficient to get a clip in there and for it sit flat. Of course, without it sitting flat, then when the body screw is tightened.. the clip snaps. I don't yet know how to deal with this, particularly as the screw hole needs if anything to go backwards, even closer to the sill's end cap. Hey ho, such fun we have. Pete p.s. I bent the inside end of a replacement spire clip further back on itself, so the tread would get closer to the inside of the sill's end-plate. I used needle / long-nose vice grips to do that. The part of the tread nearest the double-back snapped off when I put the screw in, but because the bit I'd curled back reduced the hole size.. it works. ^ horribly crude, but I'll come back to it another time. Cheers, Pete. 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Colin Lindsay Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 13 minutes ago, Bfg said: p.s. I bent the inside end of a replacement spire clip further back on itself, so the tread would get closer to the inside of the sill's end-plate. I used needle / long-nose vice grips to do that. The part of the tread nearest the double-back snapped off when I put the screw in, but because the bit I'd curled back reduced the hole size.. it works. I do that all the time, but I squash them in the vice. It allows for a better grip on the screw. A lot of good work going on there, I hope it's progressing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Truman Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Pete sure it shouldn't have been one of these, a short leg spire clip, don't know there proper name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Peter Truman said: Pete sure it shouldn't have been one of these, a short leg spire clip, don't know there proper name. J-type? Same as the overdrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted February 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2022 15 hours ago, Peter Truman said: Pete sure it shouldn't have been one of these, a short leg spire clip, don't know there proper name. It wouldn't have made any difference because the threaded part goes inside the sill, and the length from hole to end would still have been too long. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted February 3, 2022 Report Share Posted February 3, 2022 could you fit a rivnut in the hole and use a proper setscrew ?? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Truman Posted February 3, 2022 Report Share Posted February 3, 2022 the J clip long leg could also have been ground back, but hey what Pete did worked and he's happy, the J clips are I think used on the Vitesse rear lower side bumper panels where they mount to the rear wings, so the top or J isn't visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted February 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2022 Just a short report this evening, mostly because I spent part of the day catching up with putting things back together, like refastening the offside front wing where I had its lower screws out ..to paint into the crevices, and of course re-hanging the exhaust silencer and adjusting its clamps so the pipe doesn't clonk the tunnel. My task this afternoon was to get on with refitting the body to the chassis, which is again sitting on four wheels ..albeit still on the ramps so I can crawl under the car. ^ fussy as I am, I didn't like the main body mounts now each being three layers of relatively soft rubber. There were no mid-layer plates in those mounts, and the new rubber is without reinforcement mesh ..so when compressed its thickness easily squashes down as the rubber tries to squidge out the sides ..as is evident in the shape of their holes (second photo) ..after just 6-months / 250miles. Katie's old chassis showed clear evidence of where the body and chassis had chafed together - locally taking the paint off each, and undoubtedly adding to the squeaks, rattles and the humdrum of vibration type noises. These are not isolation body mounts ( Isolastic type), but if I understand the design correctly - their rubber's give is to accommodate disparities in angle &/or surface shape in the bracket on the sill / body panel and the chassis. 2-3mm is thick enough to do that. The soft rubber is also a weather seal inbetween the underside of the car and its interior. Sandwiched Inbetween these two rubber 'gaskets' would be spacer(s) ..I'm guessing in steel. That's not what I have now nor what I had previously. Rather than refit whatever there was (seemingly numerous horseshoe shaped spacers), I opted to measure again . . . ^ I set the body on the chassis without any mounts in place. Instead it sat on six little packing pieces of 3mm thick hardboard. These were placed on the chassis just under the edge of the bulkhead, and again on the corner-reinforcement-plates at either end of both trailing-arm chassis rails. The doors gaps are as they were and the doors open and close well ..now that the nearside anti-burst plate is lubricated ! Measuring and recording (2nd photo below) each body mount / the gap between the body and the chassis, I could then determine what packing was actually needed. ^ I had lots of rubber & spacers parts to choose from, as Mark was very good in returning the bits taken off the car, when replaced with new. The old body mounts were all (fabric) reinforced rubber and generally a tad thicker than the new so I could select what & where was to be fitted. I started with loosely fitting the two front mounts (one on either side of the radiator) and then those at the end of each rear outriggers. Even with loose bolts, those helped keep the alignment square. But before fitting the central body tub's mounts I wanted to fit some rubber strip under the floors. M&T seemed to have forgotten them, even though a roll of the rubber appears in one of Mark's photos. Nevertheless I had a roll of 2mm thk x 30mm wide neoprene rubber which although pretty soft I felt would do the job well. ^ my old chassis is typical of many photos I've seen (as a body is lifted off) where the body-chassis mounting strips are only rested upon by the deeper pressing of the floor, and then only occasionally. So again, me being me, I did things my own way. . . ^ short strips being cut to fit under the pressings where they cross over the chassis rails. Doing this under the car ..as evening turned to darkness, and feeding the sticky-backed neoprene in the 3/4" gap between the body and chassis didn't make it a quick operation, but the fiddling around to peel the backing paper off each little length took me longer than fitting them.! An extra pair of hands would have been helpful to un-peel the backing and, only then, to cut each length. Then of course to pass them down to you under the car. As indeed would have marking the underside of the body tub (where the chassis sits) and to do all this .. before the body was fitted. Including sorting thicknesses and now having loose-fitted the central mounting rubbers, the task took me 2 hours ..for one side. I've lowered the body now and these strips will I think work well. None of the mounting bolts are screwed in more than a few threads (because I need to lift the near side floor tomorrow to do the same), but already the tin-plate floor sounds very much duller. Even though the strips barely touch the chassis. clearly it is cushioned. My hope is that with the extra surface area, of these strips versus the original short lengths fitted in just a few places, it'll stand up to wear pretty well. Time will tell. That's it for tonight, so I bid you a pleasant evening. Pete. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gully Posted February 4, 2022 Report Share Posted February 4, 2022 Don't get too despondent about supposed professionals' work - many of us have been caught out with both mechanical and bodywork being to a shocking standard. I went to a local 'classic specialist' to have the offside a lower rear quarter repaired on my GT6. It came back looking fine, but without the photo record of work I'd asked for. 16 months later, I noticed corrosion bubbling on the arch again and when I took out the boot boards found the area very wet (probably from having been caught out by the weather on a recent run). Poking around inside the lower wing showed it to be full of flaked rust. When I took the car to a proper body shop (recommended by a few people locally), they stripped back the area to show the original rusty panel had been hammered back into the boot and a plate tacked over it before being covered with filler. There was nothing sealing the plate to the original inner panels, hence the water ingress. None of the actual rusty steel had been cut out first time around. I hate having to pay for something to be done twice! Gully 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted February 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2022 22 hours ago, Pete Lewis said: could you fit a rivnut in the hole and use a proper setscrew ?? Pete 21 hours ago, Mathew said: You could go the whole hog and weld a nut to plate then weld that on the hole! You each reflect my own ponderings. however although I loathe the crudeness of spire clips and in particular those with the very coarse body screws, the hole size through the panel they are fitted to (the sill in this case) does offer a little adjustment (even if only 1/16") in each direction, which combined with similar amount of hole slack in the panel gives 1/8" or so in any direction of adjustment. A fixed-position thread in the sill may necessitate a looser hole in the exterior panel which itself is often (as in this case) within a pressed depression. I don't like these clips, not least because they tend to scratch the paint off those edges, and so will give the matter further thought ..and research into what modern vehicle use. Not planned for this winter nor springtime, but sometime I'd like to remove each wing ..to address any rust and fraying edges hidden deeper up inside the wheel arches. Hopefully by then I will have come across a better solution. cheers, Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted February 4, 2022 Report Share Posted February 4, 2022 6 hours ago, Bfg said: and research into what modern vehicle use Those holding the wings on my Peugeot 107 are plastic plug type clips and self tap screws, with age they snap for a pastime!. Some even use plastic centres which are pulled tight to hold the panel. Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted February 4, 2022 Report Share Posted February 4, 2022 I've found over the years that, any hole in the Herald or GT6, round or square, big or small, there's a modern plug for it. As long as it doesn't require an earth, that selection will cover nearly all of the metal clips used on our cars. The round one to the top left even takes the place of the rubber insulators on the coil or solenoid mountings. All readily available from MotorFactors and unlike spire clips they don't scratch paint. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted February 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 On 04/02/2022 at 19:32, Nigel C said: Ha, I got a beany/woolly hat for Christmas that has a flat type LED torch fitted to the front of it and can be detached for washing ( the hat that is!) Didn't know they existed, but like the idea, so I ordered one on Saturday - cheers Nigel. On 03/02/2022 at 23:01, Nigel C said: I use quite a lot of double sided materials and sometimes its easier to peel the backing off, move it along 10mm and put back on again, this way you get a tab at one end to re-peel under more difficult circumstances. Thanks again Nigel, prompted by this.. I pre-peeled the backing paper off the sticky-back neoprene I'm using . . . ^ Although the suggestion was to peel the backing paper and move it along a little, I peeled it off for a couple of foot, and moved it over to one side just a couple of mm (if you'll excuse my mix of measuring units) before cutting each to size and with its slant (that's quickly done because I use pieces cut to left or right handed length as templates to save measuring each). So obvious (in retrospect) and then so quick to do the peeling this way. Should it be of interest to anyone, the second photo shows the total amount of 2mm x 30mm neoprene strip I used ..under just one side of the body tub. On Sunday, I added these to the passenger side floor, so these pads are now across each chassis rail where the pressed indent of the floors cross them. I've also fitted the body-mount pads on that side too. But for spacing the two diagonal braces in the engine bay, the body is now almost ready to bolt down. I've bought 5/16" plain shank bolts for most of the mounts as I'm really not keen on set-screws threads through rubber &/or spacers. That's just a peculiarity of mine ..as it probably matters not one iota. Before bolting it down I remembered that I had not cleaned out and painted deep into the first sill-body-mount I'd encountered ..that was the one just forward of the RH trailing arm. So this afternoon I did that, and then while laying down in that corner released the front and bottom edge of that rear wing to clean up and paint the end of the sill covered by that wing. Is it better not to know ? . . . ^ First impressions, was of rust-bubbled-paint on the sill, near the front edge of the wing (seen here with that paint scraped off with a favourite old chisel), but also just behind this was a hole through the outer sill panel ..through which the end-cap could be seen. I didn't know about this, never-the-less the weather was great and I'm practicing a happier state of mind (..yeah I know, I need a whole lot of practice ! ) Second photo shows how it looked after power wire brushing + flapper wheel. That'll not do. ^ I made a repair plate to tuck inside the now-trimmed-back-to solid-edge, with holes ready drilled for plug welding. Zinc spray paint included copious amounts inside the sill cavity. ^ plug welding with edge tacks worked well, and the inside of the end cap, as seen from within the wheel-arch is still tidy. Where the repair is hidden under the bottom edge of the wing, and for a "good n' solid driver" I don't feel the need to dress it further. I through drilled the round hole, for the spire clip fastening, and zinc sprayed into that edge too, let it dry ..and then slapped red paint all over. Job done, but for refastening of the rear wing and bottom stainless trim. So hopefully tomorrow I'll get Katie's body bolted on again. Until then, I bid you a very pleasant evening. Pete. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted February 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2022 Body mounts . . . On 03/02/2022 at 21:39, Bfg said: Just a short report this evening, mostly because I spent part of the day catching up with putting things back together, like refastening the offside front wing where I had its lower screws out ..to paint into the crevices, and of course re-hanging the exhaust silencer and adjusting its clamps so the pipe doesn't clonk the tunnel. My task this afternoon was to get on with refitting the body to the chassis, which is again sitting on four wheels ..albeit still on the ramps so I can crawl under the car. ^ fussy as I am, I didn't like the main body mounts now each being three layers of relatively soft rubber. There were no mid-layer plates in those mounts, and the new rubber is without reinforcement mesh ..so when compressed its thickness easily squashes down as the rubber tries to squidge out the sides ..as is evident in the shape of their holes (second photo) ..after just 6-months / 250miles. Katie's old chassis showed clear evidence of where the body and chassis had chafed together - locally taking the paint off each, and undoubtedly adding to the squeaks, rattles and the humdrum of vibration type noises. These are not isolation body mounts ( Isolastic type), but if I understand the design correctly - their rubber's give is to accommodate disparities in angle &/or surface shape in the bracket on the sill / body panel and the chassis. 2-3mm is thick enough to do that. The soft rubber is also a weather seal inbetween the underside of the car and its interior. Sandwiched Inbetween these two rubber 'gaskets' would be spacer(s) ..I'm guessing in steel. That's not what I have now nor what I had previously. Rather than refit whatever there was (seemingly numerous horseshoe shaped spacers), I opted to measure again . . . ^ I set the body on the chassis without any mounts in place. Instead it sat on six little packing pieces of 3mm thick hardboard. These were placed on the chassis just under the edge of the bulkhead, and again on the corner-reinforcement-plates at either end of both trailing-arm chassis rails. The doors gaps are as they were, and the doors open and close well ..now that the nearside anti-burst plate is lubricated ! Measuring and recording (2nd photo below) each body mount / the gap between the body and the chassis, I could then determine what packing was actually needed. ^ I had lots of rubber & spacers parts to choose from, as Mark was very good in returning the bits taken off the car, when replaced with new. The old body mounts were all (fabric) reinforced rubber and generally a tad thicker than the new so I could select what & where was to be fitted. I started with loosely fitting the two front mounts (one on either side of the radiator) and then those at the end of each rear outrigger. Even with loose bolts, those helped keep the alignment square. But before fitting the central body tub's mounts, I wanted to fit some rubber strip under the floors. M&T seemed to have forgotten them, even though a roll of the rubber appears in one of Mark's photos. Nevertheless I had a roll of 2mm thk x 30mm wide neoprene rubber which although pretty soft I felt would do the job well. ^ my old chassis is typical of many photos I've seen (as a body is lifted off) where the body-chassis mounting strips are only rested upon by the deeper pressing of the floor, and then only occasionally. So again, me being me, I did things my own way. . . ^ short strips being cut to fit under the pressings where they cross over the chassis rails. Doing this under the car ..as evening turned to darkness, and feeding the sticky-backed neoprene in the 3/4" gap between the body and chassis didn't make it a quick operation, but the fiddling around to peel the backing paper off each little length took me longer than fitting them.! An extra pair of hands would have been helpful to un-peel the backing and, only then, to cut each length. Then of course to pass them down to you under the car. As indeed would have marking the underside of the body tub (where the chassis sits) and to do all this .. before the body was fitted. Including sorting thicknesses and now having loose-fitted the central mounting rubbers, the task took me 2 hours ..for one side. I've lowered the body now and I'm confident these neoprene strips will work well. None of the mounting bolts are screwed in more than a few threads (because I need to lift the near-side floor tomorrow to do the same), but already the tin-plate of the floor panel sounds very much duller. Even though the strips barely touch the chassis, clearly it is cushioned. With the extra surface area of these strips, versus the original short lengths fitted in just a few places, it ought to stand up to wear pretty well. Time will tell. That's it for tonight, so I bid you a pleasant evening. Pete. Following-on from two weeks ago, I've not been in the best of health and so have been pottering rather than getting on with the job in hand, nevertheless following Gareth's question, on the TR forum, regarding 'Mounting body to chassis TR4A' < here > ..I thought I might add a few notes regarding the washers and rubber packers used during the refit of Katie's body to the replacement chassis. The bolts (or rather hex-head set screws) were replaced for new, together with the spring washers and penny washers. I say penny-washers deliberately as they are rather different to the original body washers . . . ^ two penny-washers don't equal the one thick body-washer. Indeed as you can see, even after such short use, they bent quite easily. This is because as one penny-washer dishes in, it radially slips relative to the other. Naturally this cannot happen with a single, twice-as-thick, washer. In practice, the nickle-plated penny-washers fitted were 1.2mm thick, so their combined 2.4mm thickness was already a fair percentage less than the 1/8" steel body washers previously (originally ?) fitted. As a rough estimate, using a beam-deflection calculator for solid steel ; 2x 1.5mm penny washers deflect about eight-times more, under the same load, as a single 3mm body washer. The penny-washers also measured at 28.5mm diameter, whereas the original body-washers were 1-1/4" (32mm) in diameter. Probably a bit OTT for many of you, but I took the time and trouble to custom make plates for the main body mounts . . . ^ The main body to sill mounting plates I've cut and fitted are from 3mm thick steel, three bolt fastening for the rear, and square ones (second photo) further forwards. The latter are 85 x 80mm and so have over double the clamping area of the original four 32mm dia body-washers. I've used stainless steel penny washers over these to save the paint chipping out under the bolt head. I've not used spring washers because there's already spring in the rubber mounts, to dissuade the bolts from working loose. Oh and yes, I've used plain-shanked bolts through the rubber. There's also a reinforced-rubber gasket on top of / between the floor and these body-mounting plates, to accommodate any discrepancy in surface (..for example, where the edge of the inner sill sits on the floor panel). All fastenings were of course put in with a generous smear-over of Copaslip. The forward-most footwell (square) plates are off-the-shelf bright-zinc-plated items from the fastener supplier. They have 10mm holes but with plain washers that's fine. Again they sit on reinforced-rubber gaskets to seal out moisture from under the car. These being particularly susceptible to road spray, as they are just behind the front wheel-arch. Was it worth the bother ? Well, firstly the cost to make them yourself is negligible, but for a few hours of workshop time. But then probably because of my career background I'm practiced in considering worse-case scenarios. In this instance, that's what happens when some other vehicle T-bones you at a junction. Having designed and produced very lightweight kit-cars, I had to accept that we were not driving around in armoured tanks, but on the other hand., there's a whole lot to be said for a lightweight car being simply knocked out of the way, rather than statically sitting there trying to absorb the full impact. Of course being knocked out of the way only works if the car stays together.! My concern with the skimpy penny-washers was that, in such a scenario, they would tear through the floor's body-mounts, allowing the body to peel off. So to me - the few hours spent in making these plates were worth that little bit of reassurance. Regarding the rubber packing, I don't know where M&T bought theirs from, but they were not reinforced with nylon (or similar) strands, and so when compressed they creep / squeeze out. That was evident in the distorted shape of their holes when they were first removed. Perhaps this illustrates just how flexible they are . . . Even just pinched between finger n' thumb, the stretch distortion is quite evident. The hole in one had already split to the edge. Katie had three of these rubbers in each sill body-mount, packed one on top of another, which like the thin penny-washers shown above would move relative to each other. In short time these would have 'settled' and the body mounts, tucked out of sight under the carpet, would have been loose, and the body would have been moving / chafing against the chassis. Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bfg Posted February 21, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2022 ^ she a relentless bitch, the job list never seems to get any shorter. I do one and she finds two others 6 hours ago, Mathew said: Looking forward to seeing that trim be refitted. me too ! I was cutting the insulation for under the gearbox cover today, but because I don't have decent contact adhesive - it's a two part job gluing it in place ..well the way I'm doing it anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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