Clutch parts for fitting a Triumph Overdrive gearbox onto a 1970 Triumph Herald 1200

[jagnut66]

That's a good idea, I wonder if I have a grease nipple that will fit in its place....

If not I'll just pump a little grease in there before I fit it anyway, one squirt should be enough with something this small.

Thanks for the info.

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Pete Lewis]

you dont want too much or it can transfer up the cable to the speedo head 

Pete

[jagnut66]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

you dont want too much or it can transfer up the cable to the speedo head 

So just a smear of grease then really?

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Pete Lewis]

most ive stripped are quite greasy  but not loaded ,   so yes if its dry a few helpful little dobs of grease should be fine 

[daverclasper]

I've  just squirted some oil through the hole now and again. Not as good as grease I guess?.

[Colin Lindsay]

I would be inclined to use gearbox oil at the speedo end, just a drop or two down the cable, and it will flow along to the lowest point thereby keeping the cable lubricated. I've no idea if it's good practice or not but it has never seemed to do any harm.

[Pete Lewis]

we had to have all the kit for making up cables for tachograph , we never used it as all were electronic , but the ministry of plonkers we had to have it all

this included some really nasty smelling non transfer grease to lube cables and correction boxes  i have a jam jar i have kept   I have no idea why '

IT STINKS  but good for cables  if you wear a mask and marigolds 

Pete

[jagnut66]

I've hit a snag in that I can't seem to separate the old propshaft from the gearbox, even with all the nuts and bolts removed.

Before I result to 'butchery', is there a method of achieving this?

As above, at present all the nuts, bolts, starter motor, clutch slave etc. are undone and / or removed.

I've tried jacking the box up slightly but the darn thing just goes with it. 

It's not rusted in position, as I have managed to partially shift it. But only so far....... 

Right now it's back in it's original position (on the end of the gearbox), save that the gearbox support has now been taken out (made no difference 😒).

There must be a way other than cutting it in half..............

As always thanks for any advice.

Best wishes,

Mike.

 

[johny]

Im guessing youve got a solid type propshaft with no provision for axial movement? If so I would have thought the only option is to lever the engine and box forward slightly with a bar. You might be able to this off the gearbox mounting plate but of course will need sufficient space....

[jagnut66]

1 hour ago, johny said:

Im guessing youve got a solid type propshaft

Yes, a one piece solid prop.

I'll look at trying to lever the engine & box forward a bit then.

Have any others tried this method? What did you find to be the best way?

I have a crow bar I shall try first.....

Many thanks,

Mike.

[Colin Lindsay]

You need to push the gearbox forward and upwards slightly... easier than pushing the prop back... but there is a circular ring on the prop flange that fits into the end of the gearbox flange and they need separated; it's not just a simple end to end fit. If you can get a suitable gap between the two get a good screwdriver into the gap and lever apart and upwards. It shouldn't take much effort but be very careful of your fingers on the sharp edges of the metal floor.

[johny]

Id be very careful with the flanges as surprisingly theyre quite soft and can bend....

[Pete Lewis]

as a  last resort you could undo the engine mounts to allow it to move forwards 

the best place for a strap drive prop  is ..........in the bin and a solid ican be just as bad   the engine and diff do nit need to be tied together 

agree about care on couplings any runout or bruising will give you vibrations 

Pete

[jagnut66]

Levered the gearbox up and managed to separate the prop and gearbox flanges with a screwdriver / my crowbar, namely getting past that lip ring that locks them together, which Colin mentioned in his post above..

I was in the process of gradually levering / knocking the prop completely off the back of the gearbox, when a friend arrived needing help with his Morris Minor.

I helped with his problem and he provided me with the extra leverage I needed to separate gearbox and prop. Once the two were parted the back end dropped off the diff and I was able to slide the old prop out the back.

So no grinders were required in the end and the old prop is still in one piece. This also meant that I was able to remove the old gearbox.

Which means the prep work for the replacement O/D gearbox can now begin:

Pop off the clutch cover plate and swap in the new driven plate, whose splines match the replacement box. Swap the Herald release bearing and arm over onto the O/D box (I have a new release bearing, if I can figure out how it fits onto the arm -- nothing is quite as simple as it is on the Minor).

Cut a small section out of the tunnel ready for the longer O/D box.

Then my friend has offered to pop back and help me pop the replacement box back in place and lever(?) the specially made replacement prop into place. Two can be better than one for some things, so I've accepted his offer.

Then it will be back over to me to refit things like the slave cylinder and starter motor and bolt it all back together again.....

All good fun.....

Best wishes,

Mike.

[DanMi]

when putting a gearbox back in I support the engine on a stout plank of wood under the sump, projecting backwards, then a second piece of wood of the right thickness that sits on the first under the backplate, this give support at the correct height as the bellhousing will rest on the wood and this makes aligning the box to the engine easier, particularly with the weight of overdrive. There are other ways but this works for me

[Clive]

8 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

Levered the gearbox up and managed to separate the prop and gearbox flanges with a screwdriver / my crowbar, namely getting past that lip ring that locks them together, which Colin mentioned in his post above..

I was in the process of gradually levering / knocking the prop completely off the back of the gearbox, when a friend arrived needing help with his Morris Minor.

I helped with his problem and he provided me with the extra leverage I needed to separate gearbox and prop. Once the two were parted the back end dropped off the diff and I was able to slide the old prop out the back.

So no grinders were required in the end and the old prop is still in one piece. This also meant that I was able to remove the old gearbox.

Which means the prep work for the replacement O/D gearbox can now begin:

Pop off the clutch cover plate and swap in the new driven plate, whose splines match the replacement box. Swap the Herald release bearing and arm over onto the O/D box (I have a new release bearing, if I can figure out how it fits onto the arm -- nothing is quite as simple as it is on the Minor).

Cut a small section out of the tunnel ready for the longer O/D box.

Then my friend has offered to pop back and help me pop the replacement box back in place and lever(?) the specially made replacement prop into place. Two can be better than one for some things, so I've accepted his offer.

Then it will be back over to me to refit things like the slave cylinder and starter motor and bolt it all back together again.....

All good fun.....

Best wishes,

Mike.

To aid refitting the box, get a couple of 2 1/2" (or longer) 5/16 bolts, cut the heads off and cut a screwdriver slot in the end. Screw them into 2 of the top tapped holes on the block that usually have short studs. Use these as guides to slide the gearbox into place, it gets the front alignment perfect, all  you have to do is wiggle the tail of the box to get it straight. Slide right up, NEVER use a bolt to pull the box right up tight, if it doesn't slide into place something isn't right.

Once in place use a few bolts then unscrew the guides. Refit all bolts/studs etc. 

[Pete Lewis]

i often suggest a odd bit of timber to use as a sight gauge to check the gap between box and back plate is as parallel as possible  

 

makes it refit so much easier than you keep looking it looks all ok but is actually l/  not l l   

and you can lift /jack to really square it up 

  Clives two studs are invaluable aid 

Pete

[jagnut66]

Thanks for the suggestions about the wood (DanMi) and studs (Clive), all gratefully noted for when refitting the box.

Though my existing three threaded studs are still in place, as is a locating dowel, would these not do?

I have replaced the clutch driven plate, with one with finer splines to suit the O/D box. I used the clutch alignment tool I sourced, so hopefully it's centred correctly......

However I am glad I had my (A series) flywheel locking tool to hand, as the clutch cover bolts were a pig to undo, despite comments above that they shouldn't  be / don't need to be overtight (these were - they made a bang as each one broke free!🙄). A light smear of copper grease on each should make them easier for next time.

It's handy to know it's a good fit though -- pictured below. I've attached a link below for anyone interested in one.

https://jbfab.co.uk/product/flywheel-locking-tool-classic-mini-a-series-a-clubman-cooper-1275/

Now to the clutch release bearing, I have removed the arm from the Herald box and I am faced with a dilemma. I can't for the life of me figure out how you would remove the release bearing from it's mount. I understand I would need to tap out the retaining screws locking pins and then turn them both to remove it from the operating arm / lever but how to remove the bearing from it's mounting?

The other part of the dilemma is do I need to? The existing one was working fine and looks to be in good shape (touching lots of wood!! 😉), see pictures below -- the Herald one is at the bottom. Forgive me for defining the clutch arm that came with the O/D box as a Spitfire one, I believe it was thought that's where the box originated and it helps to differentiate between them. The Herald one also has a thinner activating arm slotting into the clutch slave cylinder, so that's another reason why I'm reusing it.

I now have a choice of pivot pins for it....

There's the one I made up, the shorter Herald original, which came out in one piece, plus I have found a new (longer) one I must have ordered a while back, in case I needed one, put it somewhere I wouldn't forget and then promptly forgot all about it................

Doh! 😄

Best wishes,

Mike.

 

[Clive]

8 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

Though my existing three threaded studs are still in place, as is a locating dowel, would these not do?

However I am glad I had my (A series) flywheel locking tool to hand, as the clutch cover bolts were a pig to undo, despite comments above that they shouldn't  be / don't need to be overtight (these were - they made a bang as each one broke free!🙄). A light smear of copper grease on each should make them easier for next time.

The std studs are far too short to allow them to be used as guides. Don't get me wrong, you can jiggle the gearbox around, but getting the input shaft at the exact correct position is hard work, the guides I mentined make it 25x easier as they come ito play before the input shaft needs to ne aligned (poorly explained by me!)

as to clutch cover bolts, sounds like threadlock was used. Ask yourself, do you want those bolts to be easy to undo? I am not averse to the odd dab of threadlock in places where the issues caused by a bolt coming undone are unpleasant.

[Pete Lewis]

i would not use any lubricant on the clutch cover bolts or you may find they undo   fit dry to the hand tight or torque if you wish  a 5/16" bolt is 18-21 lbft 

no gorilla hands needed 

the throwout bearing is a light press fit on its carrier . vice and hammer type of job  should shift it 

Pete

 

[Colin Lindsay]

Release bearing is just a light fit on the carrier; it needs pressed out. A bearing puller works but I grip the edges of the old bearing in a vice and then hammer (lightly) a socket down the inside of the bearing; use a socket that completely fills the centre hole and so bears on the ring of the carrier. It will come off quite easily.

The new one then can be pressed on, it doesn't take much force and cannot go on too far.

  

 

[jagnut66]

13 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Release bearing is just a light fit on the carrier; it needs pressed out.

Thanks for letting me know how to replace the release bearing Colin, it really was quite simple, I think I was expecting something far more complicated.

It is now replaced, though I've hung onto the old one, as it looks like a good clean up and it will make a serviceable spare -- or what do others think?

I spruced up the O/D gearbox ready for fitting too, quite pleased with how it cleaned up. 

I thought someone had fitted an oversize sump drain plug and I might have hit a snag, so I decided to undo it and see if it screwed in and out okay, as in no crossed threads, before fitting the box. Turns out it's a magnetic one and it fits okay (Phew!).

The gearbox had oil in, which I drained whilst I was at it. I don't think it's that old or used though, as it didn't stink like it can do, plus it looked quite clean. Maybe the seller put it in to keep things oiled whilst he found a buyer. He supplies secondhand spares for a living, so I wouldn't be surprised. Nice chap actually.

15 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

no gorilla hands needed 

Nor Loctite I would hope Pete, I've never used any on my Morris clutch cover plates. They were so tight I thought they might snap off in situ at one point -- thank God they didn't.

My friend is going to pop round to help me fit the box tomorrow night, wish us luck.....

Best wishes,

Mike.

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

if you wanted to check the Jtype solenoid before you fit the box  unscrew it and make sure it passes the maracass test and does a good rattle when you shake it 

as for tight   I do wonder at why some think you have to tighten till its beyond its yield point  and think they have done something safe whenthe exact opposite is at hand 

you were lucky the cover bolts didnt shear when doing a hill start 

Pete 

 

[jagnut66]

On 07/07/2022 at 07:43, Pete Lewis said:

i would not use any lubricant on the clutch cover bolts or you may find they undo

I temporarily refitted my flywheel lock tool, took them back out and wiped them off, as you recommended, before attempting to fit the O/D gearbox Pete. Nice to have them undo normally this time. 

The gearbox is now installed with the help of my friend and the new propshaft bolted up to it. 

The new mounting plate I bought before I rediscovered the secondhand one supplied with the gearbox, turned out to be the wrong plate, so the secondhand one was tried and is spot on. I should have stuck to what the chap supplied with the gearbox and not wasted my time.

I suspect I've inadvertently ended up with one for the D type O/D box..... C'est la vie.....

However, having got this far, feeling like I was on a roll, I've hit an unexpected snag, in the form of two bolts that I didn't think of until now....

These are the ones that secure the gearbox mount to the gearbox, see pictures below. I have been through my stash of bolts but the ones I have are either too narrow or too wide, they either slide into the holes or don't fit in at all.

I do have two possible candidates to reduce down with my tap and die set but what is the thread size for these?

Many thanks, 

Mike.

[Pete Lewis]

they are a UNC thread   3/8"UNC x 7/8" long  J Type Overdrive Kit : Canley Classics

dont overtighten them or a stripped case will appear 

they can be a sod to located/start   and access is poor if in the car 

Pete