Tried everything with my indicators, any advice?

[Quack]

Here's the whole story.

My triumph herald 13/60's indicators have always been rather dull. They are all cheap LED's, so i wanted to replace them.

First off, i noticed when i upgraded to an alternator, my indicators started flashing very rapidly. The dash light too, and sometimes 'off beat'. I ignored it though, as they still worked.

Now, i tried to fit a brand new better LED last week. I only attempted to fit one before trying it, not sure if this effected it, but anyhow, none of the indicators worked after fitting this one. Old LED back in, boom, works again.

Today i tried putting back in the old Lucas flasher, and used 4 new 21W bulbs. And again, nothing! No dash light, no indicator lights.

I did find that if i ground my test light, and touch the bulb terminal on the flasher relay, my test light flashes. Albeit illegally fast once again, an issue i still do not know how to combat.

So with all this said...i have no idea what's going on. Why do the orignal LED's work with an LED relay? Why do new LED's not work with that relay? Why do bulbs not work with the old flasher relay? Why does the test light light up when i ground it and touch it to the flasher relays indicator terminal? What the hell does all this mean! It seems right now like my car was built to only take cheap chinese LED's!

[dougbgt6]

5 minutes ago, Quack said:

Today i tried putting back in the old Lucas flasher,

LEDs need a different flasher, what did you replace the Lucas flasher with?

Doug

[Quack]

The original LED's that were in there had a 12v LED flasher, I put the lucas back in when i tried to refit bulbs today.

[cliff.b]

Have you tried the new led bulb direct to the led relay, like you did with the filament bulb to the Lucas relay? If that works then I'm thinking maybe an earthing issue.

[Wagger]

Old and new LED's may require a different operating current. Having stated that, the LED flasher should not be current sensitive unless it is a clever one that can sense failure.

The'Old' bulb flashers were current sensitive so that they flash fast if one bulb is duff on each side. You will need to check wiring and connections all throughout the car. Use a continuity tester from the connections under the dashboard that go to the front and rear. You will need to study the circuit diagram in order to find the colours. These may differ depending upon whether your manual is the same year as your car.

I am an electrical engineer and this could take me at least two hours.

I cleaned all of my connectors, lenses and reflectors, added earth wires and now have bright original bulb indicators on my Vitesse.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Wagger
Extra info

[Quack]

6 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Old and new LED's may require a different operating current. Having stated that, the LED flasher should not be current sensitive unless it is a clever one that can sense failure.

The'Old' bulb flashers were current sensitive so that they flash fast if one bulb is duff on each side. You will need to check wiring and connections all throughout the car. Use a continuity tester from the connections under the dashboard that go to the front and rear. You will need to study the circuit diagram in order to find the colours. These may differ depending upon whether your manual is the same year as your car.

I am an electrical engineer and this could take me at least two hours.

I cleaned all of my connectors, lenses and reflectors, added earth wires and now have bright original bulb indicators on my Vitesse.

Yeah i was having a look yesterday, managed to find what i thought was the ground. both sides run in to connector and go in to the harness. Clipped the wire and the indicators were still working, so it can't have been. The rear indicators have an obvious ground but the front makes no sense as to where the ground is coming from...maybe its bolted on? But if so why did this wire ever exist. Who knows!

I've attached a video i took yesterday

[Quack]

Video upload didn't work, here's an embed

 

[dougbgt6]

Triumph have two sorts of bulb holder, one has an earth wire from the loom, the other earths to the body. Quite often you will find, over the years, the car has acquired a mixture, one on one side, one on the other or, front and back different. This may be causing your confusion. 

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

Hi Doug   good morning   SNAP !!!!

there are side/flasher lamps which have or had a bullet earth on the back of the lamp housing being a later car its quite possible it did have at soome time a seperate

black earth , most are just earted through the body mounting screws which do corrode  the boonet should have its own earth link back to the harness

so it looks to me that an earth was conjoured up together with the mismatch wire colours and has since been detached  hence the spare earth dangling 

at the lamp 

nothing stopping you running a new black from the back of the lamp mounting and earth it to a common point 

a 21w flasher takes a fair current so needs a good earth   LED use less but do still need a good earth to operate 

Pete

[Wagger]

Mine relied on the screws through to the body. I added wires to the Horn mounting. Also added a wire from here to the body in case it relied on the rusty bonnet hinge.

Adding an Alternator made all brighter at tick over and a constant rate of flashing. (Did not connect the overcoat). SHUTUP!!

On my 1500FWD the left side always flashed slower than the right due to longer cable runs.

[Quack]

That sounds like a good plan, will re-earth both front lamps if needed. I’ve got a new LED kit from classiccarleds on the way as recommended by another owner, will see how they work out then re-earth.

now just need to fix the fast flashing which will be the next step

[Bfg]

On 20/04/2022 at 20:55, Quack said:

Now, i tried to fit a brand new better LED last week. I only attempted to fit one before trying it, not sure if this effected it, but anyhow, none of the indicators worked after fitting this one. Old LED back in, boom, works again.

You do know that LED bulbs are polarity sensitive don't you.?  And so if you put positive earth bulb in a negative earth system it wont work, and of course vice-versa.  I haven't tried it but it wouldn't surprise me if when you put one reversed-polarity bulb in the circuit of correct-polarity bulbs, then non would work.  

Just a thought,

Pete.  

[PeteH]

Earthing, The BANE of automotive electrics. Got worse too (IMV) since the introduction of "canbus" systems!. When I get to the point of re-wiring, one of the things I intend is a substantial "earthing" cable, front to rear directly connected to the Battery Neg;. and run all the lighting and returns to/via it.

Pete

[Quack]

9 hours ago, Bfg said:

You do know that LED bulbs are polarity sensitive don't you.?  And so if you put positive earth bulb in a negative earth system it wont work, and of course vice-versa.  I haven't tried it but it wouldn't surprise me if when you put one reversed-polarity bulb in the circuit of correct-polarity bulbs, then non would work.  

Just a thought,

Pete.  

HI yep dont worry i made sure i have negative earth based bulbs.

[Pete Lewis]

earthing  when we restored the Vit6  added a full earth bonding wire to link all body/chassis components back to the battery earth 

pete

[Quack]

2 hours ago, PeteH said:

Earthing, The BANE of automotive electrics. Got worse too (IMV) since the introduction of "canbus" systems!. When I get to the point of re-wiring, one of the things I intend is a substantial "earthing" cable, front to rear directly connected to the Battery Neg;. and run all the lighting and returns to/via it.

Pete

 

39 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

earthing  when we restored the Vit6  added a full earth bonding wire to link all body/chassis components back to the battery earth 

pete

This does sound like the most solid idea to be honest, I may do that myself, one separate harness linking all to battery earth 

[Quack]

Problem solved by ClassiccarLEDs!! Absolutely over the moon. They sent a full package with a suitable relay and powerful LED’s. I’m guessing the original LED’s were just crap, and the relay wasn’t suitable for stronger LED’s as suggest here.

the timing of the flash is now exactly right too, so the new relay has solved all problems.

[Chris A]

Yippee! now get out there and drive - pick a route where you have to make lots of left & right turns . . . .

[Quack]

Hahahah yep, can finally keep my window closed and the hand signals at bay!

[Wagger]

23 hours ago, Quack said:

 

This does sound like the most solid idea to be honest, I may do that myself, one separate harness linking all to battery earth 

Earthing is a 'Black Art' when it comes to electronics, especially in Radio and high frequency stuff. One can create 'Earth Loops' and 'Star points' become essential to prevent interference. A long thick copper wire carrying 20 amps will still sit at a voltage greater than zero. If you choose to do that, anchor it every metre or so to a clean chassis point with a thick Brass bolt. 

Canbus issues are caused by this sort of 'Thing'.

[Colin Lindsay]

Just now, Wagger said:

Earthing is a 'Black Art' when it comes to electronics, especially in Radio and high frequency stuff. One can create 'Earth Loops' and 'Star points' become essential to prevent interference.

I had to buy a ground loop transformer when recording in my last house otherwise the background buzzing from the electrics became very annoying.

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I had to buy a ground loop transformer when recording in my last house otherwise the background buzzing from the electrics became very annoying.

Maybe that's what I need to cure the buzzing in my ears 😱

[dougbgt6]

1 hour ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I had to buy a ground loop transformer when recording in my last house otherwise the background buzzing from the electrics became very annoying

Ah, 50 cycle hum. I had a ground loop on my Telecaster, too many earth wires! Still, you won't get that on a Triumph. 

#doug

[Pete Lewis]

i had a Renault 18 with a box of broken eggs on the floor  That Hummed    especially if out in the sun for a few hours 

Phew 

[PeteH]

On 23/04/2022 at 09:56, Wagger said:

Canbus issues are caused by this sort of 'Thing

Learned this back in the 90,s. My then co car kept cutting out. Umpteen trips to the service dept. No joy. Then a youngster who had just come back from a manufacturer’s course solved it in half an hour. Cleaned the earths an never another issue.

Pete