Fuel sender

[Chris A]

I wasn't sure if this should have gone into electrical or fuel categories.

I just want to run this past you and in doing so it might help me clear my brain.

I have recently fitted a new sender, screw in type, to my 13/60. Initially, once I thought I had sorted the connections out, the gauge read 'F' after filling and remained there until now and 85 miles of use, which would be about 1/3 of a tank.

Decided to investigate, siphoned off 5 litres which would take the level to about 1/2, no movement on gauge. so drained the tank dry, no change.

I had tested the sender with a multi meter prior to fitting and the figures were close enough with the arm at the top of its movement , mid(ish) and bottom of its movement.

Removed the sender from tank and after finding that what I thought was the correct way to connect it I found that when the base plate made contact with the tank the gauge went to F. Changed the connections over and with the arm at the top of its movement the gauge reads F, at the bottom it reads E. All good. Refitted sender.

I decided that I wanted to see what readings I got at various levels, my idea was to put in 5 litres and see where it went to - bottom of red zone. It did seem to move a little from its resting position. I added another 2.5 L, which would be a total of around 1/4 tank. No apparent additional movement. Added another couple of litres and I thought the gauge had moved to the top of the rd zone. Continued adding petrol and checking the gauge in steps. I noticed now that the gauge was back to only reading the bottom of the red zone. When full the gauge still only read bottom of red zone, but a little above its resting position.

I have left it like that as I want to use the car this weekend, a full tank is far more than I will use.

My thoughts about the problem come down to :

1. the sender arm is fouling on the tank and can't move

2. the unit is somehow being 'short circuited' by being in contact with the petrol

and the last thing to strike me while having lunch:

3. the plastic float has a leak and has filled with petrol. I didn't detect anything when I took the sender out, but there again I wasn't looking for a leak.

For info the arm is quite short, as was the old one.

I even thought maybe the battery is going flat and there isn't enough current, battery now on charge.

OOH.. I feel better for that!

I'd like any thoughts you have before I drain the tank AGAIN and start from scratch. I have even checked the stock at another supplier in case I want to just buy another, but they aren't cheap over here. . .and I'm a skin flint.

Stumped and more than slightly miffed.

 

[Pete Lewis]

it unusual for a 13/60 sender to foul up in the tank

its possible the float has sunk/  filled with fuel 

the petrol wont affect its readings and there are no sparks from the low current used

being a six hole has it become mixed up with moving iron/non stabilised  and that can give you real silly redings on a stabilised system 

with no sense as to whats going on 

getting the leads on wrong   ...you should now better !!!  Ha 

Pete

 

[Chris A]

16 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

its possible the float has sunk/  filled with fuel 

Yes I need to check that out. As the sender worked outside the tank but connected to it I tend to go with mechanical rather than electrical issue.

17 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

being a six hole has it become mixed up with moving iron/non stabilised  and that can give you real silly redings on a stabilised system 

Do you mean the 6 hole should be a stabilised gauge? My gauge is a stabilised one.

17 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

getting the leads on wrong   ...you should now better !!!  Ha 

Should. In my defence I will say that the unit didn't come with any + ou - markings, just 'top' and the connectors are different to the one removed.

[PeteH]

I am thinking, a poor earth return would introduce extra resistance into a circuit that measures resistance? Might that be your issue?

Pete

[johny]

Well it worked ok with sender removed from tank so assume earth return ok.

Think Pete is saying as its a 6 hole it could be for stabilised or moving iron. A lock ring type is only used on the former...

Its quite easy to feed a hooked piece of wire in through the filler hole to snag the sender arm, pull it upwards to its full position and then check the indication🙂

[Chris A]

5 minutes ago, johny said:

Well it worked ok with sender removed from tank so assume earth return ok.

Correct. Plus the old unit, more of that in a minute, worked quite well ( should have left alone).

 

6 minutes ago, johny said:

Think Pete is saying as its a 6 hole it could be for stabilised or moving iron. A lock ring type is only used on the former...

Thanks for the clarification, I have the right version then.

 

7 minutes ago, johny said:

Its quite easy to feed a hooked piece of wire in through the filler hole to snag the sender arm, pull it upwards to its full position and then check the indication🙂

You should have added 'in theory' 😁 I did try that with the old one didn't manage it, but now that I've seen the old one and realised it is muc shortzer than I thought it would have been I could have been fishing to far away . .

THE OLD SENDER

Despite the heat I have just been and inspected the old unit. It is a Smiths one that has had the arm shortened. The base plate clearly has been modified to put 6 nicks in it so it can be used on the screw in tank plate.

I opened the unit up and have carefully re positioned the contact arm that rubs on the wires, it was twisted. Tested by connecting to the car's electrics and it works. The reason I (foolishly) decided to replace it was that with a full tank it only registered 3/4, once the fuel level dropped it moved and in fact from 1/2, or maybe even higher, down to the red zone it was pretty accurate. Now with a full tank it seems to register, from memory, a little higher.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" comes to mind.

I will investigate the new unit to see if it the float leaks and may even try fishing further over in the tank . .

But that is after the weekend.

There is a rally/tour in the area today & tomorrow, 68 classics and sporty moderns, fortunately fully booked before I got to hear of it. i will either go to my local town and look at them when they stop for their afternoon casse croûte/pee stop and listen to them when they set off OR find a spot on the route and wait for them, a spot with a junction so they will be slowing down, stopping then blasting away!

Thanks for the input I feel better for it, or is it due to the bottle of 'Black Nebula' from the almost closest artisan brewery that I am drinking?

[68vitesse]

As originally fitted.

205303 non stabilised six hole to approx. 1965

213411 six hole stabilised 65-69 approx.

215846 locking ring 69 onward.

Regards

Paul.

[Pete Lewis]

and if you want to fit a six hole sender in a bayonet ring tank you can trim the rim to fit an early sender into a more modern tank    I had to on the old Vit6 

Pete

[Chris A]

4 minutes ago, 68vitesse said:

213411 six hole stabilised 65-69 approx.

That's what I've got, the seller's site just said Herald/Vitesse. The box says 1200 - 1250 early type

[Peter Truman]

Ref Pete L comment re trimming the bolted sender down to size for the clamp ring remember there's a locating notch in the sender that will need to be re filed so the sender is aligned correctly.

I had to do it the opposite way drill holes in the later sender to fit a NOS 6 bolt tank flange,

[Chris A]

Right, week-end over, no bank holiday here today so back to work!

So, I drained the tank again and removed the sender. No signs of it leaking plunged it into a jug of petrol, no air bubbles. Confirmed, yet again that outside the tank it works. Refitted carefully making sure it wasn't fouling on the tank, put in 5lts checked for movement, added another 2.5lts checked for movement.Nothing. Added another 5, again no movement.

Decided to give up un it and let it win! All I can think of is that it just doesn't like getting wet!

Refitted the old sender and did the filling in stages, it does what it did before so will live with it.

I hate not having found out why the new one doesn't work in the tank.

*** There is an update about this saga on blond moments, well there will be in a couple of minutes.

[Chris A]

Now the garden job is done I can get back to the serious stuff.

Decided "what the heck" I'll submerge the new sender in a tub of water and see if the float, floats. .

It does.

Stared at it menacingly and a small bulb began to glimmer.

Photo of the rebellious unit:

Photo from a sellers site: (mine has the same supplier name and reference n°)

 

Spot the difference.

On the unit received the arm comes out of the right hand side of the control box, the float goes to the right of the arm, plus the arm isn't at exactly 90° to the base & unit it goes very slightly to the right.

The mounting point on the tank is to the right of centre and I am leaning to the view that all the little steps to the right result in the float rubbing up against the side of the tank and being blocked.

Obvious way to check this is to refit the float so it goes to the left.

That is something I'll leave until my next allocation of 'personal choice' time - Friday maybe or when I have used up most of the full tank of petrol I now have. .

Perhaps the unit only won the first round of the match . .

[PeteH]

Hopefully, that will be solution?.

If Not.

What type of fuel gauge is fitted. Some use a Bi-Metal strip, which is Current dependant to move the instrument needle?. And Voltage stabilised. (10V?) The current is controlled by the resistance of the potentiometer, varied by the float level in the Tank. If any outside influence changes the overall resistance then one or both of the Voltage or current would be affected and hence the instrument?.

Pete

[Iain T]

4 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Obvious way to check this is to refit the float so it goes to the left.

I had to rebend the arm on my new sender. As delivered the fuel gauge stayed on F for ages then moved to half when the tank was actually nearly empty. I've tweeked the arm and its much better but still not right. It's now at 1/4 when empty. I keep filling the tank up with petrol and forget I have to rebend the arm! 

If you fit the sender upside down I don't think it works.... 😂😂😂

Good luck or should I say bonne chance! 

Iain 

[Chris A]

2 minutes ago, PeteH said:

What type of fuel gauge is fitted. Some use a Bi-Metal strip, which is Current dependant to move the instrument needle?. And Voltage stabilised. (10V?) The current is controlled by the resistance of the potentiometer, varied by the float level in the Tank. If any outside influence changes the overall resistance then one or both of the Voltage or current would be affected and hence the instrument?.

Stabilised system, as mentioned earlier in the thread, everything works fine other than this sender. Having put the old one back in which does work, the new one works when connected but not in the tank, so no incompatibility between units.

 

[johny]

Surely the one in your photo is the same as the one in the sellers but upside down? Maybe Im missing something but if you rotate yours 180º when fitting itll be with the arm on the left and the float protruding to the left. I think this is essential as it would catch on the tank wall on my Vitesse and cant think they would make a sender so different from the original....

[Chris A]

3 minutes ago, Iain T said:

I had to rebend the arm on my new sender.

That is 'the official' advice. If you look at R's site it does actually say it might be necessary. When I first reported my suspicions to the supplier their reply was : 

Bonjour, 

En effet en tordant un peu le bras pour modifier la position du flotteur vous aurez peut être une information plus fiable, à contrôler à l'essai. 

I was prepared to do that or even lengthen the arm, this is my 'sender theory confirmation testing equipment' I constructed to think the options through on.

Pale blue wire arm as fitted, yellow/green same length as pale blue but with a bend, dark blue lengthened arm. Not to scale. Pegs used as the upper & lower stops. As you can tell technology doesn't worry me ( I ignore it)

[Chris A]

1 minute ago, johny said:

Surely the one in your photo is the same as the one in the sellers but upside down? Maybe Im missing something but if you rotate yours 180º when fitting itll be with the arm on the left and the float protruding to the left. I think this is essential as it would catch on the tank wall on my Vitesse and cant think they would make a sender so different from the original....

Both units shown with the top at the top, you can make out the word 'top' on the sellers photo and mine is the same as mounted plus there is a sticker saying top. I had been very careful about which way up it went, one of the reasons for connecting it and trying it before fitting in the tank.

What is different, apart from the way 'top' is identified is the mounting of the spade connector. In the seller's photo it goes to the right on the unit received it goes to the left, there are scratch marks at the side of it which I bet are where the spade connector has been removed, turned and re fitted. On my car the wires come in from the left of the tank, I assume this is normal so a spade pointing to the right would make connecting the unit more complicated.

Such things are sent to try us . . .

[johny]

yes something doesnt add up here and with Bastuck that doesnt surprise me although the unit is probably sourced from a third party (India?). Something has got lost in communication and as the individual components could be used for different sender designs depending on the vehicle I would ignore the labels and signs because the arm/float should be on the left side. In the end though perhaps you should return it as otherwise the errors will never be corrected...

[Iain T]

15 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Both units shown with the top at the top, you can make out the word 'top' on the sellers photo and mine is the same as mounted plus there is a sticker saying top.

But in the land where these things are made these letters mean nothing. Did it have a CE mark! 

Iain 

[Pete Lewis]

well its easy to switch the float around its only clipped in the wire 

pete

 

[johny]

44 minutes ago, Iain T said:

But in the land where these things are made these letters mean nothing. Did it have a CE mark! 

Wouldnt it be good if it was only the labels they got wrong😄

[Chris A]

57 minutes ago, johny said:

yes something doesnt add up here and with Bastuck that doesnt surprise me although the unit is probably sourced from a third party (India?)

Made in Taiwan according to the box. Although the sender I received is stamped Bastuck & has there reference as well I ordered from Datch. They don't stock the unit but order as and when a customer orders one. They told me, after a couple of days that their supplier was out of stock and offered me the option of either a month's wait or they could source one from someone else but would cost about 10€ more. I opted to wait as it wasn't urgent. I received the unit about a week later. I guess they bought from Bastuck at a trade price. Before I ordered I had seen Bastuck and they had stock. Heard mixed reviews on Bastuck over here so wouldn't be tempted to use them.

59 minutes ago, Iain T said:

But in the land where these things are made these letters mean nothing. Did it have a CE mark! 

Can't recall, cant be bothered to go and check either. Even the CE mark isn't necessarily genuine these days.

13 minutes ago, johny said:

Wouldnt it be good if it was only the labels they got wrong😄

NO IT WOULDN'T!!!! 🤪 Anyway, the unit has been bench tested to confirm the resistences at various points in the movement AND connected to the gauge and the arm moved by hand. all confirmed that top is top. Phew!

[johny]

I know it shouldnt be but I would accept just wrong labels over rubber that falls apart, components that dont fit, metal thats not heat treated correctly etc

Think Bastuck is German so surprised at some of the problems Ive heard of with their stuff....

[Iain T]

3 minutes ago, johny said:

Think Bastuck is German

It is but like most factors I'm sure they buy from wherever the mark up has the most profit.