Correct Haynes Manual

[Hicks]

Hi all, any help on the below hugely appreciated! This also applies to lot's of other parts of the car, but you've got to start somewhere I guess..

 

I'd like to start nerding up on all things TLC/ maintenance/ tweaks etc for my car, but I'm not sure what Haynes manual(s) to get.

 

The basis of the car is a 1978 1500 Spitfire, but it's been heavily modified (decades ago) into what people I believe refer to as a 'convertible GT6' - this has resulted in the car ending up with a (quote) "2498 cc Mk1 PI engine (CP) fitted with Vitesse Mk2 inlet manifold. Fitted with Dolomite Sprint 1.75 SU Carbs"

Now.. Being a bit green, to say the least, I'm already lost here - All the Haynes manuals I've looked up imply that GT6s all had max 2.0ltr engines (and that's what's in my dad's..), so where do I find a manual on the 2.5 (or as somebody from Practical Classics called it in a video when specifically talking about and testing the exact car I now own, the '2500s' engine)? Was this a GT6 unit? Or from a different production line altogether?

 

How many Haynes manuals am I going to need to buy 😂? (and I haven't even got to the gearbox yet..)

 

Any help appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

 

James

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

the 2.5 was fitted to big saloon and TR6

to identify the gearbox you have to start (apart from getting the stamped number off the box )  where is the clutch withdrawl lever  as thats a good clue 

tis unfortunenate you have aquired a bit of a hybrid mix and match made up of triumph parts never used in the model you have

so your on a learning curve , haynes are a good start then there are original reprint triumph manuals from places like club shop and most main suppliers 

even free parts catalogues from rimmer bros , you need one for spitfire  and 2500 saloons 

and if a 2.5 has been fitted to a spitty ...whats been done to the brakes ????????? 

Pete

[Hicks]

Hey Pete!

Thanks for such a quick response!

 

Yeah I knew it was going to be a bit of a deep dive when i went for it - but hey - that's the best way to learn right :)?

 

Everything on the car has had major major upgrades to handle the engine upgrade - there was a huge list that came with the car - it stops faster than most modern cars I've owned 😂.

 

In terms of the gearbox - that's a minefield - that's a hybrid as well (quote) "Dolomite 18/50 gearbox mated to a GT6 bell housing. J type overdrive. "

 

The car is actually off having a bit of TLC at a friend's garage at the moment because it had been off the road for a while - so I want to start reading up so I can tinker going forward and finally get myself good and stuck in!

 

Ok so the 2500 saloon Haynes manual will be for the engine I have? Then I have various bits of GT6 for suspension throughout the car.. There's some Dolomite and some Vitesse in there as well I think..

 

When it works it's bloody gorgeous - I just need to know how to gently tend to it when it doesn't 😂.

 

This is the car :)! - (should auto start at around 1:40..)

 

Thanks for your help!!

 

James

[KevinR]

I suspect that you will also want a GT6 manual, as hopefully the brakes (all round) and front suspension and uprights have been upgraded to GT6 items.

[Hicks]

Hi Kevin :)!

 

Yes GT6 suspension front and back and big juicy ventilated discs at the front 👍.

 

Ok so 2500 saloon manual, GT6 manual and dolomite manual for the gearbox i guess? 😬

 

Thanks for your help!

 

James

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Hicks said:

 

In terms of the gearbox - that's a minefield - that's a hybrid as well (quote) "Dolomite 18/50 gearbox mated to a GT6 bell housing. J type overdrive. "

 

'Mated' just means screwed - no joke intended! Honest! - but it's a straight fit, no mods necessary. What do you need to do to it?

[Hicks]

Hi Colin! Ah ok nice! 

 

Don't need to do anything as such at the moment - I just have a brain that likes to know how everything I'm using works - With a modern car I figure I don't have a chance because it's all ECUs and chips, but with mechanical things I can actually read about - great! The thirst for knowledge only ever rises!

 

It would be nice to know all the little things I can do to make sure I'm keeping in the car in peak condition as well - and how to do that without taking it apart and then putting it back together and being left with 4 bolts sitting on the drive.. 🤔

 

James

[Pete Lewis]

j type OD is covered in the 2000/2500 saloon manuals    also in the 1500 spitty manuals

1850 dolly gearbox is basically similar to GT6/vitesse/spitfire   3 rails with small internal upgrades like mainshaft spigot at 18mm 

or there abouts 

Pete

[Hicks]

Hi Pete :), 

 

OK perfect! Thanks so much. That sounds like a great starting point to get my swot on :). Time to have a trawl through ebay and see what I can find.

Thanks all!! 

 

James

[Badwolf]

 

 

11 hours ago, Hicks said:

...... and how to do that without taking it apart and then putting it back together and being left with 4 bolts sitting on the drive.. 🤔

 

You mean, like this.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=daVDrGsaDME

[Hicks]

 

Ha. Exactly! 

I don't think any new bolts have been made since the 80s. Just everytime someone takes a triumph apart, there's enough leftover that go back into the system and keeps the automotive industry going!

 

[JohnD]

Hicks,

Despite the above, IMHO Spitfire front suspension and braking is fine for a six cylinder engine, the GT6 stuff isn't significantly different, as is the transmission, until you get to the halfshafts.     Rotaflex rubbers have a shorter life with 2.5L of torque, even proper ones, swing axle/spring halfshafts have a stress point just before the wheel bearings, and the wheel bearings ow youthemselves are just weedy.   You may want to think on't, as many have replaced them with more modern CV joints and uprights for proper wheel bearings and shafts.     And what a pity yours got carburettors if it was  Pi engine!   

But it looks wonderful!  And no doubt drives well too,  Enjoy!

John

[dougbgt6]

39 minutes ago, JohnD said:

IMHO Spitfire front suspension and braking is fine for a six cylinder engine, the GT6 stuff isn't significantly different

Really?!!   You would be silly not to upgrade.

Doug

[Hicks]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Hicks,

Despite the above, IMHO Spitfire front suspension and braking is fine for a six cylinder engine, the GT6 stuff isn't significantly different, as is the transmission, until you get to the halfshafts.     Rotaflex rubbers have a shorter life with 2.5L of torque, even proper ones, swing axle/spring halfshafts have a stress point just before the wheel bearings, and the wheel bearings ow youthemselves are just weedy.   You may want to think on't, as many have replaced them with more modern CV joints and uprights for proper wheel bearings and shafts.     And what a pity yours got carburettors if it was  Pi engine!   

But it looks wonderful!  And no doubt drives well too,  Enjoy!

John

Hi John! Ahh well, its already on there now, so if it ain't broke I guess?

 

As for everything else you mentioned.. I think I'm going to have to wait 'til my manuals turn up before I know what you're talking about 😬!! 

 

It's a beaut when it's running, that's for sure! 

Did the PI engines not normally have Carbs then? 

 

Thanks John :)! 

[Hicks]

1 hour ago, dougbgt6 said:

Really?!!   You would be silly not to upgrade.

Doug

I'm all ears for any ideas people have to make things safer/ better/ more robust

 

James

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Hicks said:

Did the PI engines not normally have Carbs then? 

Indeed not, as indicated by the meaning of "PI". It stands for "petrol injection". They had a somewhat... quirky Lucas mechanical injection system. It worked well... at sea level, over a narrow engine speed range, when just set up and with everything in good order... as long as you weren't too fussed about emissions or economy. 🙄

[JohnD]

But boy!  The Torque!

Lucas Pi was developed by them for use on racing Jaguars in the 50s.   The version on Triumphs had to be a simplified one,  the Jags had two shuttles each!  But it was the first use of fuel injection in a production car , in the world.      It did work, but Triumph being Triumph and never liking to spend any money, didn't on training their dealers.  So when the cars came in for service the mechanics fiddled with the metering units, like they were carburettors, and lost tune.      As a result, Lucas Pi got a wholly unjustified reputation for unreliability, when in fact they do not need the regular adjustment that a carb does.   Moreover, the same Lucas Pi was adopted by Ford, for racing Capris and by Maserati for production cars.   It was more than "quirky", it was excellent - and still is.

But time had not stood still since the 50s. even if Lucas had persevered with developing a mechanical system.      Within a few years, Bosch delivered the K-jetronic, despite its name also a wholly mechanical system, but agricultural in comparison to the Multi-port, pulsed, timed Lucas system, using a single constant flow injector, modulated by an air vane for flow.    But cheap as chips, it was taken up by many manufacturers, including Lucas.     And very soon itself replaced by the type of electronically controlled multiport, timed injection we have today.

Lucas Pi was a victim of progress and parsimoney!

[dougbgt6]

48 minutes ago, NonMember said:

as long as you weren't too fussed about emissions or economy. 🙄

Which is why USA TR6s had big Strombergs, as with the smaller Strombergs they are efficient and need little attention once set up. 

Doug

[Hicks]

19 hours ago, NonMember said:

Indeed not, as indicated by the meaning of "PI". It stands for "petrol injection". They had a somewhat... quirky Lucas mechanical injection system. It worked well... at sea level, over a narrow engine speed range, when just set up and with everything in good order... as long as you weren't too fussed about emissions or economy. 🙄

hahahaa - sounds like I may have got away with a better option then.. 🤔 Sounds interesting though - I'll have to look it up! Would be cool to see what the original injection systems looked like!

[Hicks]

19 hours ago, JohnD said:

But boy!  The Torque!

Lucas Pi was developed by them for use on racing Jaguars in the 50s.   The version on Triumphs had to be a simplified one,  the Jags had two shuttles each!  But it was the first use of fuel injection in a production car , in the world.      It did work, but Triumph being Triumph and never liking to spend any money, didn't on training their dealers.  So when the cars came in for service the mechanics fiddled with the metering units, like they were carburettors, and lost tune.      As a result, Lucas Pi got a wholly unjustified reputation for unreliability, when in fact they do not need the regular adjustment that a carb does.   Moreover, the same Lucas Pi was adopted by Ford, for racing Capris and by Maserati for production cars.   It was more than "quirky", it was excellent - and still is.

But time had not stood still since the 50s. even if Lucas had persevered with developing a mechanical system.      Within a few years, Bosch delivered the K-jetronic, despite its name also a wholly mechanical system, but agricultural in comparison to the Multi-port, pulsed, timed Lucas system, using a single constant flow injector, modulated by an air vane for flow.    But cheap as chips, it was taken up by many manufacturers, including Lucas.     And very soon itself replaced by the type of electronically controlled multiport, timed injection we have today.

Lucas Pi was a victim of progress and parsimoney!

huh! How cool! Got some reading to do it would seem :).

 

I guess it would be kind of fun to have the car running on fuel injection.. I do love fiddling with carbs though - it gives me a good excuse to make a disgusting amount of noise on the driveway and annoy the neighbours.. 

[SpitFire6]

Here is one for the engine:

http://www.tr6pi.com/TR6 workshop Manual.pdf

[JohnD]

No reason not to fiddle with Pi. justknow hwat does hwat!

See: http://www.lucasinjection.com/Lucas Mk2 manual page 26.htm "EFFECTS ON FUEL DELIVERY PERFORMANCE WHEN ADJUSTING CALIBRATION SCREWS"

These pages inlcude the whole Lucas Pi manual.  You'll need page http://www.lucasinjection.com/Lucas Mk2 manual page 24.htm and this diagram to interpret:

If you (as do I) prefer the printed page, then the Wheatsheaf Press of Wilmslow do a facsimile edition:

The Printworks, Lacey Green, Wilmslow, SK9 4BQ   01625-530530

[SpitFire6]

What GT6 rear is it? What ratio diff? 

Cheers,

Iain.

PS Nice car. I like they have been able to use a spit bonnet.

[Hicks]

On 29/07/2020 at 12:33, SpitFire6 said:

Here is one for the engine:

http://www.tr6pi.com/TR6 workshop Manual.pdf

Apologies for the lackluster response - Life took over for a couple of weeks there..

Perfect thanks - Going to start ordering all these manuals now - Car should be back with me soon :)!

 

[Hicks]

On 29/07/2020 at 14:22, JohnD said:

No reason not to fiddle with Pi. justknow hwat does hwat!

See: http://www.lucasinjection.com/Lucas Mk2 manual page 26.htm "EFFECTS ON FUEL DELIVERY PERFORMANCE WHEN ADJUSTING CALIBRATION SCREWS"

These pages inlcude the whole Lucas Pi manual.  You'll need page http://www.lucasinjection.com/Lucas Mk2 manual page 24.htm and this diagram to interpret:

If you (as do I) prefer the printed page, then the Wheatsheaf Press of Wilmslow do a facsimile edition:

The Printworks, Lacey Green, Wilmslow, SK9 4BQ   01625-530530

I'm really interested to get the car back, get the manuals out and see how it all used to go together with this PI set-up. I'm also tempted to try and get hold of the previous owner who did all the modifications and see if it was him that converted it from PI to carbs, or whether when he bought the engine it already had carbs bolted to it. 

 

Really cool that they had the original fuel injection system on them though - Is it something people the began to change back once they discovered it was actually a good system, or had it just got to much of a band name by then?

 

James